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Old 11-16-2012, 09:49 AM   #21
Wouldhe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
I don't see people acting this way if they completely forgive and understand things, so they have no fears to push onto others.

Why else would adults indoctrinate and pass their fears onto children unless there is something THEY haven't forgiven but continue to FEAR? And if the kids don't forgive either, then they carry these fears to the next level, etc. But if they forgive then they don't.

Can you see it is the same cycle repeating, based on what the generation before didn't resolve, but is either in denial about or is projecting blame onto something outside their control (due to unforgiven unresolved issues)

Wouldhe have you noticed that people who are NOT afraid are generally "forgiving" and do not "fear" that people can control them.
Do you call this something else beside forgiveness, do you call it emotional detachment where you no longer react? Sort of like the Buddhists monks who are at peace, and do not react to other people's agenda or actions.

What do you call that lack of fear if you do not relate it to forgiveness?
Huh?

I'm not making your connection betwen the two.

What I am talking about is the fear of not believing. Why or how does that fear get instilled? And yes, it is perpetuated from generation to generation. Why does Sapphire believe so deeply she believes in the absurd? Why do any of the God-fearing people on this forum fear God? Because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't. Faith is all fear based.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:59 AM   #22
emilynghiem
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Dear Wouldhe:
I think we are talking about two different levels of fear.
I divide fears into three basic types
1. Fear of the unknown
2. Fear of change or loss of control to outside authority against our will
3. Fear of conflict or confrontation with others.
So the fear you are talking about seems more about #1, where it is based
on ignorance, fear of the unknown, and can be counteracted with truth, knowledge and wisdom to restore people's faith and love, instead of
being driven by ignorance and fear.

What I am talking about is when people in general are pushing their beliefs
and projecting blame onto others out of the fear in #2. They are afraid other people are teaching wrong things, so they push even harder to compete with that. They don't think they can work together, because they blame unforgiven wrongs on the other group. (That is why I emphasize "forgiveness" as the first step to breaking through a deadlock between both sides in conflict blaming the other, trying to push the other to change, when in fact both are right and both need to change to resolve the mutual conflict.)

So far, it seems we have identified
FEAR and
EGO as two of the factors that befall humanity.
So this does correspond with Satan/Antichrist or the negative opposites of God/Christ. If we know that FEAR/EGO are the problem, then what do you define as the SOLUTION to these two factors?

What overcomes Fear, is it faith, love truth or what?
What checks the Ego, is it compassion for others or what?

In the PBS film on Buddha, the three evils were given as
Ignorance
Anger
Greed
And the three ways to correct these were
Wisdom
Compassion
Generosity

My friend who counsels people through life coaching, again, lists his
three focus points as
FEAR
STRESS
ANXIETY
in teaching people to identify their hotspots and commit to letting go

What is the third thing in the set
FEAR
EGO
???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouldhe View Post
Huh?

I'm not making your connection betwen the two.

What I am talking about is the fear of not believing. Why or how does that fear get instilled? And yes, it is perpetuated from generation to generation. Why does Sapphire believe so deeply she believes in the absurd? Why do any of the God-fearing people on this forum fear God? Because they are afraid of what may happen if they don't. Faith is all fear based.
1. With kids, I find the most natural influence and focus is on love, teaching that God loves us and Jesus loves us the way parents love their children.
2. With the fear-driven teaching, with every person I have met who teaches that way, that person is unforgiving of something, whether they blame humans, Satan, unbelievers, whatever they fear "represents" something they haven't forgiven. So this makes them afraid.

For example, if a parent does not understand the criminal illness that makes repeat offenders prey on children and harm them, and they "fear" this cannot be treated or cured, they will preach more fear-based approaches to their children to "fear" these men and stay away. However, if they understand these people are sick, and could be detained and cured by getting help, they might have more compassion for the sick people, and blame the govt or other people for letting these sick people run loose to threaten others; so these people would still warn kids and teach based on fear of danger, but it is not this hateful type of fear directed at the person. It is fear of the situation with understanding that this can and should be corrected.

Similar with religion. If we understand that Gentiles are under natural laws, and may not understand Jesus or Justice the same way as Christians teach using the Bible and religious symbols, then we know that being secular humanist or nontheist is not the problem to be "attacked' or "feared." So the teaching would come out different, similar to how Buddhists respect not to indoctrinate, but offer wisdom freely and people can investigate and decide on their own what is true that they wish to adopt and follow. You are right that there is not this element of "fear" causing them to push to indoctrinate.

However, again, I find that people who do not forgive things in the past tend to proselytize and push their views based on fear. My mother went through this. As a Buddhist, she did not push anything, until AFTER some things went wrong she could not forgive. Then she not only started clinging to her beliefs more, but started pushing that Buddhism was the only way and all other people needed to recognize this and she could not see that she was doing the saem thing Christians were doing with Jesus. She finally let go around the time a monk explained forgiveness to her this way: he explained that the goal was to have equal compassion for all people and beings REGARDLESS if they do right or wrong to us or others; regardless how they act toward us, the goal is to be so detached that we act with goodness and compassion anyway, whether you can this independent, unconditional, detached from material consequence or reward or suffering. Clearly it involves forgiveness in there, or else people could not detach or let go.

After she let go of that, then she quit projecting her fear into things. She still advocates and tries to correct things, but not out of fear but out of compassion.

Wouldhe, the cycle of this fearbased pushing business is broken by forgiveness.

Where we forgive, we can open our minds to understand causes, so we do not fear this factor can have more influence or control than the influence of love and positive compassionate and charitable words and actions. And where we do not fear, we can forgive and understand the reasons people act out of fear and we can share knowledge and wisdom to alleviate that fear and break the cycle.

Wouldhe I have another friend who does not focus on the unforgiveness/forgiveness framework that I use (mostly because I deal with people debating religion and politics "after the fact" after they already divided people into groups that blame each other, so forgiveness is the focus to unlock the deadlocks)

Instead he focused on the fear, and also stress, and anxiety.
So those are the three causes of people getting blocked up in life that they can free themselves of in order to unleash their full potential.

What are the causes of fear
What are the causes of stress
What are the causes of anxiety

In all those areas, I tend to find people have unresolved issues they are projecting from the past onto current situations and people. So the approach I take is to find out why they blame and cannot forgive a certain person or group, and then work it out from there to remove the fear (or stress or anxiety) attached. I see these as interconnected. I look for the thoughts, memories and perceptions that people can identify and verbalize as what the "fears" are attaching themselves to. And by resolving the issues underneath, the fears go away.

Wouldhe I see you are very fair and forgiving in trying to understand the roots of people's fears and why they project this onto children and others especially with religious teachings. A lot of the negative political campaigning we saw was fear-based, fear of the rich or fear of teh poor having more impact or influence.

And if you look deeper into each person's fears, you will find which issues or people they blame because they cannot forgive something or someone that group represents in their minds, and they will not budge from their fear of this which feeds their unforgiveness, and vice versa.

I agree it is hard to tell, which came first, the chicken or the egg, the fear or the unforgiveness; is it that people were already afraid of poor people committing crimes, and then they started blaming blacks and latinos as perpetuating this problem, and then they started blaming liberals and Democrats for enabling criminals or did they start blaming Republicans and conservative for punishing the poor and not solving the problems. so when they see stories in the news about illegal immigrants killing police officers, do they blame the liberals/Democrats or blame latino's or who. Where did that start, did it start with incidents they saw in the news, or racial preferences and biases they got from their parents? In any case it is both fear based mixed in with unforgiveness and not understanding how problems are caused and can be fixed. If they felt the problem could be fixed, they would be less fearful and more forgiving; and the less fearful and more forgiving, the better chance of looking into the situation objectively and understanding how to fix it so there is no need to fear it.

Sorry for the long message.
I think this is so obviously connected, you didn't really need all this.

I do agree with you it will help to address the reason people fear things.

So maybe the next step is to address this with Sapphire, and find out how to get rid of fear that is in teh way of reaching an understanding of what God and the Bible mean that INCLUDES Gentiles, secular humanists and atheists, and can explain why the Christian believers and hypocrites act as they do also.

None of these conflicts need negate the meaning and message in the Bible. Whatever is the universal truth about the process mankind is going through, it should be able to explain all the positions we are taking currently, and why we are in conflict with each other, and what it will take to reach an agreement.

So far, it seems we have identified
FEAR and
EGO as two of the factors that befall humanity.
So this does correspond with Satan/Antichrist or the negative opposites of God/Christ. If we know that FEAR/EGO are the problem, then what do you define as the SOLUTION to these two factors?

What overcomes Fear, is it faith, love truth or what?
What checks the Ego, is it compassion for others or what?

In the PBS film on Buddha, the three evils were given as
Ignorance
Anger
Greed
And the three ways to correct these were
Wisdom
Compassion
Generosity

My friend who counsels people through life coaching, again, lists his
three focus points as
FEAR
STRESS
ANXIETY
in teaching people to identify their hotspots and commit to letting go

What is the third thing in the set
FEAR
EGO
???

Last edited by emilynghiem; 11-17-2012 at 08:03 AM.
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