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Old 11-15-2012, 07:31 PM   #121
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If this transparent administration has nothing to hide, what would be gained by not just honestly responding to direct questions and get on with their lives.

Obama's standard response to anything controversial is "It is under investigation". Fast and Furious was under investigation right up to the day that Eric (with)Holder had nowhere else to turn when Obama showed that he had his back by claiming Executive Privilege. They have been investigating Benghazi since September 12, 2012, more that 60 days now and will continue to do just that until they are backed into a corner again and I'll bet they shut the investigation down by claiming that it is classified or claim Executive Privilege again. They're establishing a standard defense which is apparently that they are above the fray and therefore they just stop responding and the unpleasantness will just go away. Unfortunately for the country, it appears to be working.
Your conspiracy theory mindset is getting to the point of pathetic.
Anyone with a modicum of reason and common sense knew that F&F was a debacle at the operation level.
Anyone with the same level of judgement can see that what happened in Benghazi was a tragedy.
No one is bucking responsibility for this. But you and your salivating buddies want vigilante "justice".

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Neither you nor this administration can deny that they were promoting that damn movie as being the cause of the Benghazi attack. (Well, let me walk that back. You will more that likely continue to deny it forever.) What was to be gained by denying what the actual cause was?
No, no one was "promoting" anything. Rice was relaying the intelligence reports available at the time. It was not even her jurisdiction as UN Ambassador.
And again, you are talking out both sides of your ass: you can't say out of one side that they were "promoting the movie" and out of the other say that CBS was editing out where Obama said the opposite... even though the Rose Garden speech disproves that anyway.
Again, anyone with a modicum of reason and common sense knows that there were simultaneous protest about the movie when this attack happened. Even some of the Libyan protesters were saying so.

You know, talking out of both sides of your ass does not make you multilingual.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:33 PM   #122
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This guy is an expert but Leon Panetta, you know, the guy kind of in charge of the military says that the military THE MILITARY needs to know ahead of time what to expect prior to a military action.but a diplomat just blindly and heroically accepts the sacrifice his life in the name of diplomacy.

Bullshit. They hung Stevens and the others out to dry. Obama himself wouldn't say that he had given a specific order to help them. He's damn quick to say he ordered the killing of ... never mind, you'll never get it .
You're right... rational thinkers don't live in your conspiracy theory nutcase world.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:23 PM   #123
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Your conspiracy theory mindset is getting to the point of pathetic.
Anyone with a modicum of reason and common sense knew that F&F was a debacle at the operation level.
Max, I am asking the following as a serious question. Would you attempt to explain why you believe that F&F is just an inconsequential debacle which is no more than a pathetic conspiracy?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I really don't understand how anyone could believe that. I'd really like to understand, straight up, single subject with no talking points, insults, name calling or sarcasm. You've told me "what" you think but have not given me the reasoning or logic of "why" you believe as you do. Hopefully I may be able to learn something.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:11 AM   #124
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Max, I am asking the following as a serious question. Would you attempt to explain why you believe that F&F is just an inconsequential debacle which is no more than a pathetic conspiracy?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I really don't understand how anyone could believe that. I'd really like to understand, straight up, single subject with no talking points, insults, name calling or sarcasm. You've told me "what" you think but have not given me the reasoning or logic of "why" you believe as you do. Hopefully I may be able to learn something.
I know I'm not Max but I'd like to answer too. The gun running idea was tried by two administrations. It's inconceivable to me how anyone can think up level people in the Admin knew about this small hold over program as some conspiracy. (For what??? Do you think they wanted to take over Mexico?) When they did find out though they put an end to it. We can't expect the whole government to be perfect. We can expect them to stop things that aren't working. If the were still using gun running programs after it was brought to light that would be different.
Government is not perfect. Mistakes are made. Solyndra was a mistake. F&F was a mistake. Things happened in Bengazi.
Yet you want to harp on these things yet somehow: the Administration has nothing to do with the strength of the Stock Market (although complete control every bad day). Nothing to do with finding Bin Laden and making the decision not to drag him in for some circus of a trial. Nothing to do with job growth.
There is never ANYTHING positive said.
When you run out of negatives you simply go back to Bengazi Bengazi Bengazi or F&F F&F F&F. Or frigging birth certificates and college transcripts.
The man has ended a war and is bringing another mess to a close. He has weathered a huge storm with grace an compassion and he has been elected TWICE by a majority of Americans!
They might not look like you. They might not be as successful as you are but they are Americans. They get to vote and they did.
The idea that they voted to get something free is ludicrous there were no handouts in the Presidents platform there was only a bridge between the huge disconnect that's growing. The income disparity in this nation can not continue if we want to be a strong and vital nation.
Developed society do not work TOWARDS a fudal system. Developed societies to not work TOWARDS stripping woman of their rights. This nation has NEVER worked towards denying the rights of our immigrant population.
That's why the election was won. All this "hey look over here! Remember that! The sky is falling!" None of this bullshit matters. Monica Lewinsky DID NOT MATTER!
Pointing fingers and always trying to find fault is not governing. Stop looking for ammunition and start looking for some ideas. How can we solve the problems? That's why the POTUS ignores the Trumps and the Limbaughs because he is out there trying to solve problems.
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Last edited by NOLA; 11-16-2012 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:27 AM   #125
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Most of the Republican members of a Senate committee investigating the terrorist attack at the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya, skipped a classified briefing by administration officials on the incident Wednesday,

The missing lawmakers included Sen. John McCain of Arizona, who at the time of the top-secret briefing held a press conference in the Capitol to call for the creation of a Watergate-type special Congressional committee to investigate how and why the attack took place.


McCain, who has accused President Barack Obama of not telling the truth about the Benghazi attack, said that even though there are several committees involved in the probe, only a select committee could streamline the information flow and resolve the "many unanswered questions" about the tragedy.

When CNN approached McCain in a Capitol hallway Thursday morning, the senator refused to comment about why he missed the briefing, which was conducted by top diplomatic, military and counter-terrorism officials. Instead, McCain got testy when pressed to say why he wasn't there............They don't want answers.........Just something else to bitch about......OBAMA, I have never heard some much whining & excuses in my life about why somebody lost an election...................

Last edited by lookdown; 11-16-2012 at 05:39 AM.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:34 AM   #126
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Max, I am asking the following as a serious question. Would you attempt to explain why you believe that F&F is just an inconsequential debacle which is no more than a pathetic conspiracy?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic but I really don't understand how anyone could believe that. I'd really like to understand, straight up, single subject with no talking points, insults, name calling or sarcasm. You've told me "what" you think but have not given me the reasoning or logic of "why" you believe as you do. Hopefully I may be able to learn something.
It is really pretty clear - this operation was neither conceived nor monitored by this administration. The original gunrunning plan "Wide Receiver" in 2006 also failed and was not reported up the chain in the previous administration. The Inspector general's report on F&F outlined where the reporting chain led and where it stopped. Understanding how this reporting chain worked (or didn't work) is key to unravelling the conspiracy theory. The 2006 effort is not a "Bush did it too" but a supporting example. It also shows that the concept did not originate with the Obama Justice Dept - another key element in invalidating the conspiracy theory. The same key players were involved in both operations. It appears that the Justice Dept was faulted in the investigation:
Among other things, the report faulted several higher-level Justice Department officials for not asking more questions, focusing in particular on Jason Weinstein, an assistant deputy attorney general who had learned about the Operation Wide Receiver case in the spring of 2010 and who signed off on several wiretap applications for Operation Fast and Furious that, the report said, should have alerted him to ask more questions and raise alarms.

I've worked in big corporations and have seen the upward reporting chain in operation. I've seen how things get "filtered" on the way up. I've seen debacles get downplayed in the reporting chain... especially if it involves mistakes by those doing the upward reporting.

Another point is WHY would they? From a NYT article on the investigation:
For more than a year, some Republicans and commentators on conservative news media outlets have floated theories that senior Obama officials must have approved the operation deliberately fostering gun violence to provide a rationale for strengthening gun-control laws and that they were engaged in a cover-up.
More of the conspiracy theory stuff - the old "they're coming to take our guns away!" sky is falling bullshit. Gun owners have not been restricted at all in this admin, in fact they have MORE freedoms than they had before. You can now carry loaded weapons in national parks.
Personally - I'd like to see assault weapons banned. I bet Holder and Obama would too. But Holder testified during his confirmation that he would uphold the law as it is written.

There is nothing that supports the conspiracy theory. There is no clear logic line of cause and effect.

Every botched operation or mistake does not have to be the result of some conspiracy. It may be a crude statement, but it reflects reality: "shit happens".
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:00 AM   #127
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It is really pretty clear - this operation was neither conceived nor monitored by this administration. The original gunrunning plan "Wide Receiver" in 2006 also failed and was not reported up the chain in the previous administration. The Inspector general's report on F&F outlined where the reporting chain led and where it stopped. Understanding how this reporting chain worked (or didn't work) is key to unravelling the conspiracy theory. The 2006 effort is not a "Bush did it too" but a supporting example. It also shows that the concept did not originate with the Obama Justice Dept - another key element in invalidating the conspiracy theory. The same key players were involved in both operations. It appears that the Justice Dept was faulted in the investigation:
Among other things, the report faulted several higher-level Justice Department officials for not asking more questions, focusing in particular on Jason Weinstein, an assistant deputy attorney general who had learned about the Operation Wide Receiver case in the spring of 2010 and who signed off on several wiretap applications for Operation Fast and Furious that, the report said, should have alerted him to ask more questions and raise alarms.

I've worked in big corporations and have seen the upward reporting chain in operation. I've seen how things get "filtered" on the way up. I've seen debacles get downplayed in the reporting chain... especially if it involves mistakes by those doing the upward reporting.

Another point is WHY would they? From a NYT article on the investigation:
For more than a year, some Republicans and commentators on conservative news media outlets have floated theories that senior Obama officials must have approved the operation deliberately fostering gun violence to provide a rationale for strengthening gun-control laws and that they were engaged in a cover-up.
More of the conspiracy theory stuff - the old "they're coming to take our guns away!" sky is falling bullshit. Gun owners have not been restricted at all in this admin, in fact they have MORE freedoms than they had before. You can now carry loaded weapons in national parks.
Personally - I'd like to see assault weapons banned. I bet Holder and Obama would too. But Holder testified during his confirmation that he would uphold the law as it is written.

There is nothing that supports the conspiracy theory. There is no clear logic line of cause and effect.

Every botched operation or mistake does not have to be the result of some conspiracy. It may be a crude statement, but it reflects reality: "shit happens".
First and foremost, I appreciate the fact that you just stated your thoughts. I can't give a proper response due to a little thing like having to make a living. I will give you this much right now. I have read several articles fostering the theory that F&F was being used to create more gun violence to reinforce an effort to tighten gun control. I've never thought that was logical and I dismissed it when I heard it.

I don't agree with some of the other points you attempted to make and I'll try to explain my take on it tonight or tomorrow. I don't see it as being as simple or clear cut as you do.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:03 AM   #128
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Default I'm so tired of this shit ....

If someone criticizes Susan Rice ... they are sexist.
If someone criticizes President Obama ... they are racist.

The real expert in this line of attack is Rahm Emmanuel.
I have started calling it the Rahm Emmanuel style of politics!
If someone doesn't agree with your position ..... call them a vile name!!
It is often practiced on these boards!

The truth is they (Rice, Obama, Clinton, and others) all lied. Someone, probably in the WH or very close to the President or the President himself altered the talking points after the attack in Benghazi.
It was probably the same person that removed the terms "terrorist" and the "war on terror" from all the talking points and speeches emitting from the WH.
Go ahead take a wild guess who it was?
I think I know.

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Old 11-16-2012, 11:18 AM   #129
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First and foremost, I appreciate the fact that you just stated your thoughts. I can't give a proper response due to a little thing like having to make a living.
Same here... I will pay for my time on here dearly for the rest of the day. I have a report to get out, then I have a gig with my band tonight. It's good to get paid!

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I will give you this much right now. I have read several articles fostering the theory that F&F was being used to create more gun violence to reinforce an effort to tighten gun control. I've never thought that was logical and I dismissed it when I heard it.

I don't agree with some of the other points you attempted to make and I'll try to explain my take on it tonight or tomorrow. I don't see it as being as simple or clear cut as you do.
Don't get me wrong... I don't think it is simple. I only invested enough time in my explanation to show why the conspiracy theory doesn't make any sense to me.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:27 PM   #130
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Same here... I will pay for my time on here dearly for the rest of the day. I have a report to get out, then I have a gig with my band tonight. It's good to get paid!



Don't get me wrong... I don't think it is simple. I only invested enough time in my explanation to show why the conspiracy theory doesn't make any sense to me.
Where yha playing Max?
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