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Old 11-17-2012, 08:57 AM   #1
BottomsupH
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Default Why is evolution a debate? People actually believe the Bible?

I am completely dumbfounded how people can discard the consensus of tens of thousands of the most educated people and brilliant people in the history of the world. Our understanding of evolution comes from thousands of peer reviewed papers. There are branches upon branches of science that are all consistent which are based on evolution.

Yet people deny it out of hand? Is it nothing more than pure unadulterated ignorance?

Instead they irrationally profess belief in a book that starts with a talking snake, ends with a 7 headed monster, and features a guy who has the strength of Hercules because he didn't cut his hair? Talking donkeys? Rivers of blood? Necromancy? Suicidal demonic pigs... You can't make this stuff up. Living in a fish for several days? All animal life today being descended from what fit on a boat 5k years ago? If Jack and the Beanstalk was in there - I bet people would believe it too.

The most educated scientific community that has ever existed has provided overwhelming reason to believe something - and it isn't enough for them. Then they go believe in talking donkeys out of "faith". dafuq is wrong with people?
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:48 AM   #2
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Dear Bottomsup:
Me, too. I find it's all a distraction.
(similar to how the arguments over "global warming" are a distraction from the real issue of stopping pollution and saving resources that we ALL AGREE WITH)

1. First of all, both evolution and creation can be included in Biblical and Christian beliefs without contradiction. The same God that can be pegged as behind creation can also be behind evolutionary processes because of natural laws and science being part of the physical world, that again, God can be credited for. So there is no need for conflict.
2. The issue fueling the debate is the ill motives of trying to discredit one group or another. Regardless if these two groups are fighting over global warming or evolution, if they don't trust each other that is the reason they are fighting. The arguments are secondary and won't change their reason for fighting.
3. Third, more reconciliation and good could be achieved by using science to prove how Spiritual Healing works. That would not only facilitate mental health and medical treatment to cut costs of health care and save lives, but also revolutionize the criminal justice and prison system by treating criminal illness as a disease that can be diagnosed early and either cured or monitored under safe detention using medical science instead of corrupted legal regulation to determine who is a remaining threat to society, not letting sick people free.

So this issue totally distracts from using science to prove something more tangible, effective and practical in terms of reforming society and saving humanity.

again
2. the reasons for fighting are not the facts per se, but the division between different groups fighting to discredit each other for personal motives, so that is why nothing is being solved

3. the real issues that could be addressed and RESOLVED are getting no attention. Sadly, these can be much proven much easier, to solve the problem in #2 with "false division" between science and religion, faith and reason; as well as solving a myriad of social problems and suffering to help all people.

Trying to redirect attention and traffic to spiritual healing being proven by science is like trying to get people to stop arguing about global warming and work together on stopping pollution and conserving energy and the environment. It makes more sense but the fighting in #2 prevents this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BottomsupH View Post
I am completely dumbfounded how people can discard the consensus of tens of thousands of the most educated people and brilliant people in the history of the world. Our understanding of evolution comes from thousands of peer reviewed papers. There are branches upon branches of science that are all consistent which are based on evolution.

Yet people deny it out of hand? Is it nothing more than pure unadulterated ignorance?

Instead they irrationally profess belief in a book that starts with a talking snake, ends with a 7 headed monster, and features a guy who has the strength of Hercules because he didn't cut his hair? Talking donkeys? Rivers of blood? Necromancy? Suicidal demonic pigs... You can't make this stuff up. Living in a fish for several days? All animal life today being descended from what fit on a boat 5k years ago? If Jack and the Beanstalk was in there - I bet people would believe it too.

The most educated scientific community that has ever existed has provided overwhelming reason to believe something - and it isn't enough for them. Then they go believe in talking donkeys out of "faith". dafuq is wrong with people?
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:29 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by BottomsupH View Post
I am completely dumbfounded how people can discard the consensus of tens of thousands of the most educated people and brilliant people in the history of the world. Our understanding of evolution comes from thousands of peer reviewed papers. There are branches upon branches of science that are all consistent which are based on evolution.

Yet people deny it out of hand? Is it nothing more than pure unadulterated ignorance?

Instead they irrationally profess belief in a book that starts with a talking snake, ends with a 7 headed monster, and features a guy who has the strength of Hercules because he didn't cut his hair? Talking donkeys? Rivers of blood? Necromancy? Suicidal demonic pigs... You can't make this stuff up. Living in a fish for several days? All animal life today being descended from what fit on a boat 5k years ago? If Jack and the Beanstalk was in there - I bet people would believe it too.

The most educated scientific community that has ever existed has provided overwhelming reason to believe something - and it isn't enough for them. Then they go believe in talking donkeys out of "faith". dafuq is wrong with people?
When you walk away and look at the phenomenon from a distance, the "confusion" kind of goes away. Then, a bit of understanding begins to dawn.

1. The Sumerians were probably the most scientific of all the ancient peoples in their writings. However, when one looks at all of the ancient cultures put together, they appear as extremely advanced technologically.

What I see from the Egyptians is that technology was regarded as sacred and segregated in "schools" and kept separate from the populace. It may have been so in Chinese societies and Mayan/Aztec as well.

2. The so-called scriptures of the world over the last nearly 6,000 years comprise a record of mostly mythology with a bit of history to justify the existence of a) kingship and b) a distinct people.

Biblical mythology pales in comparison to other, more ancient scriptures.

3. Ah, but then the question as to why our ancient ancestors gave respect to scriptures of any ilk. In our modern times, the various forms of the Bible and the Quran are the current scriptures given reverence.

The adjoining question is why do so many people NEED to attach a divinity to the words contained in any given scripture?

4. IMO, we share a commonality that date backs to at least 12,000 years ago when mankind was virtually wiped out.

The "gods" descended from the skies (according to all of the scriptures available to us), giving us knowledge, society, and even kingship. They imparted just enough technology to make lives easier. Our ancestors might even have been "partners" with these gods tens of thousands of years ago before the gods "left" humans to their own demise.

While the gods ruled the human race, societies were fairly stable. War was strictly controlled and rarely exercised, except when one god felt offended. (Think the war games the European kings played against each other that eventually culminated in WWI.) But when the gods left, mankind was thrown into a tizzy. Leaderless, societies degraded into the animalistic, tribal, dog-eat-dog groups we see today. Virtually overnight (give a century or so), humans divided themselves according to which god was the supreme god, skin color, ancestoral origins, and the like.

5. We are in a mess. We look for salvation. Originally it came from the stars. We desired a return of the gods; we desired to leave this hell-hole and join the gods. Religions of every type and flavor profess the singular promise of returning to the gods and escaping the madness of a world spiraling out of control.

6. This leads us to evolution. What promise does evolution offer? None.

What proponents of evolution have accomplished is a PAST progression from simple organisms into the monster called humans. There is no salvation in evolution. In fact, there is no hope in evolution, probably because no one can show how humans will continue to evolve. The idea that we will all become superhumans with the capacity to finally rid ourselves of the "animal" and become more loving and understanding is regarded as mere fantasy.

7. As witnessed in ancient societies, the person-on-the-street could care less about both the past and the far future. Additionally, the normal person is not really interested in how we got here OR where we are going.

From the times when survival overrode curiousity and daydreaming to the present, people have only been interested in the very short time allotted to this life. We enjoy the "toys" we have that the "strange" humans have not only invented but brought to the market, and we cannot conceive of ever giving them up and going back to more "primitive" times.

But again, these modern technological toys do not offer salvation. While they might mitigate the rigors of life a bit, death is the door awaiting everyone.

Since we cannot evade death, we--like our ancestors before--begin to steel ourselves against this eventuality. We desire to return to the stars, only instead of the physical stars we have created a supernatural universe, typically called heaven. There is no proof of this "afterlife," but there are in existence all of these "cool" words that can be labeled as divine. After all, these words can be interpreted as divine wisdom passed down to "those who want to pay attention."

And that brings us to another peculiar human characteristic: belonging to either a secret society or being a member of an exclusive group. We love to wiggle our fingers in front of our noses, with the "nanner, nanner" cry, indicating that we hold some kind of secret information that will "save" us while watching everyone else be "damned."

8. We're drowning.

There may be an innate fear that if one turns to science that the god(s) will turn away from those people. There certainly is a directed, aggressive propaganda program against any thought of leaving the "church." Control and enslavement have always been prominent in every society since the mythological Adam and Eve started a family.

I feel the need to reiterate: in the day-to-day dealings with life, the scientific theories of evolution are "nice to know" or at least interesting. They do not alleviate human suffering, and they certainly do not offer solutions for the important concerns of the day.

Religion tries to offer solutions, even if it encourages physical and psychological flagellation. Buddhism states that we are not punished for our sins but by our sins. And we love to create sins that help explain away why life basically sucks and why we all have to eventually die.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:53 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Wallis View Post
The adjoining question is why do so many people NEED to attach a divinity to the words contained in any given scripture?
Dear Wallis:

This pinpoints the difference in the mind of the secular.
From your viewpoint, you see believers as choosing or needing to assign or attach divinity to the scriptures. That is just as off as people who see nontheists as choosing NOT to see God's influence in all things. Is this really a choice?

What if people's minds are not CHOOSING but we are expressing what we see or don't see.

Just because you don't see the divine connection or source behind why scriptures were carried and committed to heart over centuries, doesn't mean this connection does not exist and is "made up by man."

And likewise just because they see it and you don't doesn't make you some kind of degenerate or rebel against God. What if this God created nontheists to think in objective secular terms and NOT be confused or influenced by things outside the scientific realm. What if that is the design and intent for a purpose?

If people don't choose their race that is decided at birth, what if the spiritual affiliation or denomination their minds are geared toward are specific also?

Do we really need to criticize, discredit or denounce people for how their minds work? What if that is just the way they are, and we just need to learn to deal with our differences, not judge them as better or worse. If the fundamental Christian mind is not good for certain realms of science, let the secular minds work on that field; and if one group can't make peace among religions, let someone else come in and do that job. Why not just make the most of whatever ways our minds work, and which people or groups we connect with?

I'm perfectly fine if one person sees the "divine" in nature or in the Bible or in music or comedy. And another sees it in science or medicine or whatever way they approach life and contributing to society. Whatever you call God's will or higher good or purpose in life, whatever aspects you value, and whatever terms or means you use to express it. Is this really an issue of choosing to assign it?

Where is the problem with this?

Isn't the REAL problem whether we IMPOSE our ways on someone else who sees things differently? It is not a matter of what ways we choose, but if we try to harass or demean someone else for their choices, or where our choices cause harm to other people. Where is the harm in seeing divinity in Bible scriptures?

My mother happens to see divine wisdom in the Buddhist teachings and community.
I assume this is from her spiritual connection with ancestry that lived by and carried these things down by tradition, so it is part of the family and generational spirit that continues to pass down, connecting the past with future hearts and minds.
So it makes perfect sense why she would see something greater than just the material words and teachings.

Same with Christians who have prayed in a unifying connection through Christ to join the past generations with the future.
Of course the ones who are part of this lineage, whether Jewish Christian or Muslim, are going to feel a connection with that.

And of course people who are secular Gentile and under science, civil or other natural laws
may NOT feel any such connection but may see truth being expressed and established by agreement in other ways.

What is wrong with that?

Last edited by emilynghiem; 11-17-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:28 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
Dear Wallis:

This pinpoints the difference in the mind of the secular.
From your viewpoint, you see believers as choosing or needing to assign or attach divinity to the scriptures. That is just as off as people who see nontheists as choosing NOT to see God's influence in all things. Is this really a choice?

What if people's minds are not CHOOSING but we are expressing what we see or don't see.

Just because you don't see the divine connection or source behind why scriptures were carried and committed to heart over centuries, doesn't mean this connection does not exist and is "made up by man."

And likewise just because they see it and you don't doesn't make you some kind of degenerate or rebel against God. What if this God created nontheists to think in objective secular terms and NOT be confused or influenced by things outside the scientific realm. What if that is the design and intent for a purpose?

If people don't choose their race that is decided at birth, what if the spiritual affiliation or denomination their minds are geared toward are specific also?

Do we really need to criticize, discredit or denounce people for how their minds work? What if that is just the way they are, and we just need to learn to deal with our differences, not judge them as better or worse. If the fundamental Christian mind is not good for certain realms of science, let the secular minds work on that field; and if one group can't make peace among religions, let someone else come in and do that job. Why not just make the most of whatever ways our minds work, and which people or groups we connect with?

I'm perfectly fine if one person sees the "divine" in nature or in the Bible or in music or comedy. And another sees it in science or medicine or whatever way they approach life and contributing to society. Whatever you call God's will or higher good or purpose in life, whatever aspects you value, and whatever terms or means you use to express it. Is this really an issue of choosing to assign it?

Where is the problem with this?

Isn't the REAL problem whether we IMPOSE our ways on someone else who sees things differently? It is not a matter of what ways we choose, but if we try to harass or demean someone else for their choices, or where our choices cause harm to other people. Where is the harm in seeing divinity in Bible scriptures?

My mother happens to see divine wisdom in the Buddhist teachings and community.
I assume this is from her spiritual connection with ancestry that lived by and carried these things down by tradition, so it is part of the family and generational spirit that continues to pass down, connecting the past with future hearts and minds.
So it makes perfect sense why she would see something greater than just the material words and teachings.

Same with Christians who have prayed in a unifying connection through Christ to join the past generations with the future.
Of course the ones who are part of this lineage, whether Jewish Christian or Muslim, are going to feel a connection with that.

And of course people who are secular Gentile and under science, civil or other natural laws
may NOT feel any such connection but may see truth being expressed and established by agreement in other ways.

What is wrong with that?
Where are you coming from, Emily?

Where am I criticizing?

Why are you superimposing your ideas on my words?

You are impossible to communicate with. Please join the rest of us on just one world where we communicate with one language.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:51 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Wallis View Post
Where are you coming from, Emily?

Where am I criticizing?

Why are you superimposing your ideas on my words?

You are impossible to communicate with. Please join the rest of us on just one world where we communicate with one language.
Hi Wallis is THIS the offending message where I maligned you?
I apologize for whatever misunderstanding is going on here.

If I started this by misunderstanding your statements, I apologize
and ask you to please clarify what you meant.

From your statements below, I read that you either
(a) view people reading divinity into scriptures is somehow a negative or
weak point, as if man is making this up, and it is false.

If that is not the correct interpretation or insinuation, I apologize
and I will delete my message based on this reading of what you said.

(b) or that the divinity that people read into the Bible (or the Constitution as I also do) is somehow "no different" than people reading message from the stars or tea leaves, etc.

I believe there is a difference.

So I apologize if either of these ideas was NOT what you meant by your
message, which is copied in part below.

Can you please explain what you meant, then, Wallis?

Thank you and sorry for any UNINTENDED offense as I did not mean to malign or misread you on this! Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallis
The adjoining question is why do so many people NEED to attach a divinity to the words contained in any given scripture?
Here is the quote where I read or misread that you believe reading divinity into scripture is manmade, some kind of need or choice that is not necessary, instead of treating it as a natural connection that is coming from a divine source and is not just people NEEDING or CHOOSING it mentally, it is their connection with God. This is like questioning why do people NEED to attach color to objects they see, why can't they just see things in black and white and quit doing this.

That's how I read your statement, sorry if this is not what you mean.
Can you please explain? How you do see people reading divinity into scripture if this is not accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallis
5. We are in a mess. We look for salvation. Originally it came from the stars. We desired a return of the gods; we desired to leave this hell-hole and join the gods. Religions of every type and flavor profess the singular promise of returning to the gods and escaping the madness of a world spiraling out of control.
Here is another quote that does not distinguish the true meaning and message in Christianity or other religions from the false dependence on religion that you are talking about historically.

Since you make no distinction between true and false religion, this appears to be "maligning" the true faith along with the false beliefs trying to rationalize or justify an understanding of teh unknown. I did not see you were equally being fair with the true message in Christianity or other religions that is teaching people to live by higher spiritual principles, where it is NOT about conditional living for rewards or fear of death/punishment, but life IS about spiritual peace and satisfaction by being in harmony with the greater good will for all humanity.

So it seemed to me you were "putting down" people for seeing a divine msg in Scripture, and throwing this in with "all other religions that 'attempt' to do the same thing" I did not think that was fair

But if this is not what you meant, I apologize Wallis.

If you can please explain what areas you DO see that people have truth or wisdom and that "not all religions" are false or bad, then I will understand you are not painting all interpretations of all religions or systems of law with the same negative brush.

If you DO have a bias against ALL human systems as flawed, where there is no true way to interpret or apply them, but they are all equally "false justification" that is what I was criticizing.

Is this something we can correct Wallis?
If not, I will just delete this message and start over.
Thanks for your help!
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:13 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by BottomsupH View Post
dafuq is wrong with people?
Odd isn't it that we have people walking amongst us that display a mindset that has not significantly changed since the Bronze-age. What's worse - and somewhat worrying - is that they are allowed to vote!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
1. First of all, both evolution and creation can be included in Biblical and Christian beliefs without contradiction.
Don't be so incredibly stupid!

Quote:
3. Third, more reconciliation and good could be achieved by using science to prove how Spiritual Healing works.
It doesn't work, as has been proven many times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallis View Post
Where are you coming from, Emily?

You are impossible to communicate with. Please join the rest of us on just one world where we communicate with one language.
+1 Wal!
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Jesus is UNBELIEVABLE!!

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Old 11-18-2012, 02:32 PM   #8
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Emily,

Just read what I write and stop interpretting it.

If I want to criticize something or put "something down," you'll get the message very clear.

I was responding to BottomsupH's question and giving a neutral opinion from my point of view.

I don't give a fuck what people want to believe, even the cocke-mamie shit you keep foisting on us. It is when others insist that I or anyone else HAVE TO believe whatever it is they believe to be true.
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:54 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
Odd isn't it that we have people walking amongst us that display a mindset that has not significantly changed since the Bronze-age. What's worse - and somewhat worrying - is that they are allowed to vote!!!
Since churches/religious groups are expected to fund and follow their own policies/leaders by choice, and not impose these on others who are free to do the same; the same policy should be applied to political groups, who would be free to follow/fund their own leaders/platforms and not impose these on others who are free to do the same. By "equal protection under law" people are not to be discriminated against or denied equal rights or representation based on religious beliefs, so the same should be applied to political beliefs. America is just not evolved to that point yet, but this election may push this issue.

RE: room for both creation/evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by plad
Don't be so incredibly stupid!
It just follows, that if God made the world, and all life and processes in it, everything in nature and science, then if evolution is true then God must have created that process also.

Otherwise, you are right, Plad, the argument falls apart.
I agree it is stupid, the whole thing.

RE: spiritual healing that is effective vs. false faith healing that is fraudulent
Quote:
Originally Posted by plad
It doesn't work, as has been proven many times.
1. I have multiple sources that not only prove how spiritual healing works effectively, but also explain what steps are missed by fraudulent false faith healers, and how to correct this by following all the steps in order.

Plad, if you are going to be fair, please include the cases where spiritual healing prayer works as well as the cases that fail, which can usually be explaining using the same system. The same system of math can explain both the right answers when it is used correctly, and can point out the mistakes made when math fails to add up. It doesn't mean math doesn't work and the whole system is false just because more people get wrong answers than right answers.
The people who understand the process, can explain the difference between using it correctly and incorrectly, to get both the effective results or the failures.

I sent two books on this to Wallis, and offer to send them to you. I found a church group with physicists and engineers who are open to objective study, research and proof, as opposed to the fundamentalists they reject for the same reasons you do. I believe we would have more success proving spiritual healing scientifically, than trying to prove either creation or evolution, if you would like to join in this effort. I would highly recommend and trust your judgment, Plad, since you would not be biased toward success of any such proof; so if it works, and meets your standards, that is as good as it gets!

2. As I stated before, the same methods of spiritual healing prove/explain why false faith fails to heal as well as why the correct diagnosis/therapy succeeds --
like the laws of gravity/physics that in one case cause the books to fall to the floor while in another case cause the books to sit firm on a shelf. Just because the results are inconsistent with each other, doesn't mean gravity doesn't work.

The shelf is not acting by itself, but in conjunction with the laws of gravity which ARE consistent.
But if the shelf is flat, you get one result where the books stay firm.
If the shelf is slanted or removed, the books fall.

With spiritual healing, it is NOT the prayer that is "causing the healing."
The prayer is used to identify/remove unforgiveness, so that the natural healing is no longer blocks from happening.

Like the laws of gravity, the forces of healing already exist and in effect.
The mind and body in their normal states, naturally heal themselves by the life force and energy flowing through.

What the prayer does (in effective methods) is IDENTIFY issues in the mind or spirit that are *unforgiven* and BLOCK the spiritual healing from flowing freely,
then REMOVING these blocks by asking and praying for FORGIVENESS.

Without that step, and pray for healing WITHOUT forgiving the causes of blockage or illness, then that is one MAJOR reason prayer will fail!

False/fraudulent practice fails by randomly praying and expecting to be naturally healed, WITHOUT first identifying what is blocking the healing from happening and removing that blockage first. So of course this is bound to fail.

Just like the scientific method in medicine, of identifying the CAUSE and treating THAT, in order to cure the illness; spiritual healing works the same way.
The cause of the blockage must be identified and removed, in order for the healing to happen naturally as the mind/body are designed.

3. the sources I cite are listed on http://www.spiritual-healing.us

These are free, do not depend on someone changing their faith as I have at least two friends who received healing through this prayer and remain nonchristian gentiles, and do not require anyone to join or to pay their group.

The two healing practitioners I recommend the most have over 30 years each of successful healing practice and teaching others freely. They both work alongside medicine and science as completely compatible and natural; with the only practice they clash with being witchcraft, sorcery, voodoo, occultism or demonic/spiritism or any other manipulation of mind/will/spirit using dark energy or dark forces. Anything else like Buddhism, AA or other spiritual therapy or seeking positive change out of forgiveness and compassion is compatible and does not clash or require conversion to Christianity.

So whatever arguments you have against "fraudulent/false faith healing"
do not apply to the true practice of spiritual healing that is free and effective.

These are distinct, and so are the results, that speak for themselves
as well as stand up to scientific inquiry which I look forward to pursuing as a team.

Thank you, Plad!
Your objective nature and commitment to scientific proof are greatly respected
and appreciated as a gift to be shared.

Last edited by emilynghiem; 11-18-2012 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:43 PM   #10
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Why do you think I am joking when I am responding to you, Emily?

Some of your thoughts and paragraphs are so "far out there" that it is difficult to see where you define the line between reality and fantasy.

I realize, too, that your head is just whirling with all kinds of thoughts and ideas. But when you put them down on paper, you need a kind of funnel that allows only one thread at a time.

Believe me, if you were one of my students in English class and gave me some of your posts as assignments, you would fail. When writing, one must have a thesis (a point to be made) and cohesion of thoughts germaine to that thesis. You can have many theses, but each thesis has to stand on its own.

Secondly, when you respond to other posts, you cannot be reading into the post as if you have some sort of second-sight. You can walk away with an emotional feeling (positive or negative), but you cannot point an accusing finger and state "you said this" because that is the feeling you experienced.

If I should write: "The sky is dark.", I really don't appreciate someone coming along and retating my words. "Oh, he meant that the night sky is pitch black." or "There was a full eclipse of the Moon." First thing, it is presumptuous that I was talking about a night scenario in the first place.

You have allowed a filter to color my words. Sorry, but that's not my fault. Some of my ideas and opinions are in stark contrast to what you think and feel. Thus, you filter what ever I write negatively through that very opinion you have of me. And that gets you into trouble.

Sure. I feel that anyone who regards any scripture as of the gods has truncated intuitive and progressive absorption of knowledge. But do I realy care? No. Do I put them down? No. Do I strike back when others insist I believe the same? You bet your ass.

My response to BottomsupH was an opinion piece on how I believe mankind has chosen religion over science. Bottom line: science doesn't save; religion does. And since man rose up out of the mud, he prefers to be saved and live forever.
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