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Old 11-20-2012, 04:20 PM   #41
Stevomeo
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Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
You and Israel may well see them as 'uncivilised' but that does not give Israel the right to steal land.

...or 3) Give back the land you stole and withdraw to the pre 1967 borders as directed to by many UN resolutions.

You conveniently ignore why rockets are being lobbed into Israel.

You conveniently ignore why rockets are being lobbed into Israel.

HUH??? WTF!! Are we talking about the same war here? Do you REALLY need me to supply you with a list of atrocities such as deliberate bombing of hospitals and schools by the Israelis?? It's not pleasant reading I assure you. What about the incident when Palestinian civilians were sheltering in a school. Both the Red Cross and the UN informed the Israeli military that they were there and the UN even gave the GPS co-ordinates to the Israelis....who ignored the information and bombed the school anyway...killing hundreds.

So when the UN informs the Israeli army that civilians are sheltering in a school and even gives them the GPS co-ordinates for that school, only to have the Israelis bomb it anyway....what does that make the Israelis? Don't forget that Ben Gurion and Ariel Sharon were both members of terrorist organisations

This is a typical blinkered American view I'm afraid. Not ALL Muslims/Islamists are "savages hell bent on destroying anyone and anything that doesn't bow to Allah"....no more than all Americans are fat bastards with a tendency to believe that 2000 year old mythology is actually true. You Americans seem to need 'something to fear' and now that there are no 'reds under the bed' you have jumped on the next best thing...Muslims!

This much!



No, they would live in the land that was given to them in the Balfour Declaration.

Israel of course....and why should we be concerned where the Israelis go? Do they care where the Palestinians go when they evict them from their homes?

Israel to comply with the UN resolutions directing it to dismantle all of it's settlements on Palestinian lands and withdraw to the pre 1967 borders. Until that happens, there will never be peace.

Wouldn't disagree with that.

I agree that there have been some treaty violations, and even violations of international law. Where are the UN troops to correct the situation? I never said that the Israelis were justified in some of their acts, however, Hamas and Hezbollah are backers of the Palestinians. If I'm not mistaken they are both well known terrorist groups as described by our State Department. These groups are well known for launching missiles from heavily populated civilian areas so as to create "human shields" which increase world wide sympathy for their cause when they show the collateral damage caused by retaliatory strikes. I agree that not all Muslims are hell bent on killing non-believers, however, given the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians are supported by regimes that would love to make Israel an ashtray there certainly seems to be a problem here. I would also argue that Islam is not the peaceful religion that so many want to promote given the actions documented in the Koran of Mohamed, their prophet. Some of us Americans who have our heads out of the sand still regard China as a threat both economically and militarily.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:04 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
What's to think about bro? You would do the same as me if your homeland was invaded and occupied, your house destroyed, your children killed and your livelihood taken...you'd fight the invader. You'd fight them until there was no more fight left in you. You'd fire rockets at them and if you had no rockets you would throw stones at them. ....wouldn't you?
I know, you're right, but this is really complicated. Israel is so entrenched socially and economically I'm not sure how giving land back would work. I envision from your maps splitting Israel in half so that there are now two equally divided country's but doing that seems undoable. It would be like splitting England in half and making two country's from it. You would now have to move all those to the countrys the people would want to live in and what about the infrastructure. All the offical government buildings and such. What about the people who have jobs in each respective country? It's complicated.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:47 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Wouldhe View Post
I know, you're right, but this is really complicated. Israel is so entrenched socially and economically I'm not sure how giving land back would work. I envision from your maps splitting Israel in half so that there are now two equally divided country's but doing that seems undoable. It would be like splitting England in half and making two country's from it. You would now have to move all those to the countrys the people would want to live in and what about the infrastructure. All the offical government buildings and such. What about the people who have jobs in each respective country? It's complicated.
But who wants angry Palestinians for a legal neighbor? Or Jews with nukes?
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:32 PM   #44
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Love the map. But like everything else, the Palestinians and Israelis will fight about the accuracy. Let's not forget that there are still around 2 million arabs who live in the confines of Israel-and I believe that most of them have Israeli citizenship as well.

Now hold on, (I know) I didn't say anything about giving back anything to anyone per se. Who goes what and where is beyond the scope of the US (unless both parties want us to do it-and I would have no doubt that we would have endless skirmishes of both sides trying to kill us. That's a good reason for staying out-out-out of it!) Israel DOES have a right to exist-BUT it has to also have a GENUINE desire for peace in the region if it wants to survive. (In other words ditch these racial-superior-historical-God gave us this crap ideas and approach it pragmatically and with common sense. And good God whenever they get into a jam cry mama to the Big Powers when things didn't turn out so well. (Anybody ever REALLY [instead of listening to those jack-asses on the pulpit] read the Bible-they tried to play off one big power against the other and EVERY time they did it they paid a huge price when the big powers decided to eat them up, piddling little city-state that it was. Forget all of that priestly-supernatural-superstitious mumbo-jumbo. It was a lie from the get go.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:43 PM   #45
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A little excerpt from the German media (just for some balance). Solidifies my point about the Palestinians using civilian areas to launch their missiles from.


For years, sirens in Tel Aviv only sounded for civil defense drills and on days of remembrance. But now, Palestinians are firing rockets at Israel's largest city and residents have to live with it.

"As the sirens wailed, I needed a few seconds to realize what was happening," recalls 35-year-old Michal Edry. It was Thursday of last week when the sirens sounded in Tel Aviv for the first time in 21 years. And it was not a drill.

The military wing of the Hamas regime in Gaza, the Kassam Brigades, had fired a missile at Israel's biggest city. Michal Edry and here husband, Ronny, were on their way to a meeting at the French consulate in southern Tel Aviv. The couple raised eyebrows at home and abroad last year with their online peace campaign 'Israel loves Iran'.

Tel Aviv, Israel's cosmopolitan lifestyle magnet on the Mediterranean

"We wanted to hide in the consulate, but the security officer was pretty nervous and closed the door in our faces," says Michal, adding that she began looking for some place that offered cover. Her husband grabbed her and they ran to another building. "We ran for a few seconds, which seemed like an eternity to me, and reached a youth center for Russian and Arab kids. They were crying and yelling all over the place in Russian, Arabic and Hebrew. It was bizarre," said Michal. There are only a few air raid shelters in the city and often several minutes away. When there is an alarm people have to find shelter in hallways or basements.

Escalation after targeted killing

Last Wednesday (14.11.), Israel targeted the car carrying the military chief of the Islamist Hamas Movement, Ahmed al-Jabari, with a missile and killed him. He is believed, among other offenses, to have been involved in the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. The attack on Jabari was the beginning of Israel's 'Pillars of Defense' military offensive.

A response from Gaza did not take long, and so far, Palestinian extremists have launched nearly 1,000 rockets from the Gaza Strip, killing five Israelis and wounding dozens of others.

The number of victims on the Palestinian side is much higher. Palestinian news agencies have reported more than 120 deaths and hundreds of wounded. In the densely populated coastal enclave, extremists often launch their rockets between homes or from the roofs of apartment buildings. If Israel attacks the launch site, many people can be killed.


I'd still like to know why the Israelis have been allowed to continue to expand in violation of International law? Could this situation not be settled via the UN sending in ground forces to take control of the situation? Would either side fire upon UN soldiers is the question?
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:18 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by hrdguera View Post
But who wants angry Palestinians for a legal neighbor? Or Jews with nukes?
I have always wondered why the other Arab countries don't take them in, such as Lebanon or Jordon. They also don't seem to defend them either.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:11 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Stevomeo View Post
I acknowledge that he has valid points, as do I.
Your 'valid point' seems to be something along the lines of ' Israel has held the stolen land for so long now that we might as well let them keep it and the Palestinians will just have to live with it'.

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Originally Posted by Stevomeo View Post
...however, Hamas and Hezbollah are backers of the Palestinians.
The USA and Britain are backers of Israel...what's your point?
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-pol...els-atrocities
http://www.globalresearch.ca/targeti...cialty/5312190

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If I'm not mistaken they are both well known terrorist groups as described by our State Department.
Again, what is your point? How does any of that justify Israel stealing and occupying land that does not belong to them? If there was no occupation of Palestinian land there would be no fighting and hence, no backing by 'terrorist' organisations. Also, let's not lose sight of the fact that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Remember that America considered Osama bin Laden to be a 'freedom fighter' when he was fighting the Russians. As long as he was doing what he was told, America was more than willing to prop him up with both weapons, money and intelligence. So please tell us what difference you see in Osama bin Laden carrying out terrorist attacks on the invading Russians and being backed by the USA and the Palestinians carrying out attacks against the invading Israelis and being backed by Hamas. Your double standards are showing pal!

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These groups are well known for launching missiles from heavily populated civilian areas so as to create "human shields" which increase world wide sympathy for their cause when they show the collateral damage caused by retaliatory strikes.
So what would you do bro....place your few worn out, decrepit weapons in an open field to face the might of the Israeli army? C'mon man, get real here will you.

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I agree that not all Muslims are hell bent on killing non-believers, however, given the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Palestinians are supported by regimes that would love to make Israel an ashtray there certainly seems to be a problem here.
Does that differ in some way to the Israelis wanting to annihilate Arabs?

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I would also argue that Islam is not the peaceful religion that so many want to promote given the actions documented in the Koran of Mohamed, their prophet.
You'd best keep away from this my friend. But if you insist, I'd be happy to shoot you down in flames on that particular subject. Feel free to come over to the Religion forum and give us your examples of where the Qur'an advocates what you say.

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Some of us Americans who have our heads out of the sand still regard China as a threat both economically and militarily.
Some of you American see anything that opposes your idea of 'democracy' as a threat.

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Originally Posted by Wouldhe View Post
I know, you're right, but this is really complicated. Israel is so entrenched socially and economically I'm not sure how giving land back would work.
Well I'm not sure if it would work either mate but I am sure that until they do it, there will be no peace in that area.

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I envision from your maps splitting Israel in half so that there are now two equally divided country's but doing that seems undoable.
Why should it be split in half?? Put it back as it was before the Zionist expansion programme or as it was before the 1967 Israeli invasion.

Quote:
You would now have to move all those to the countrys the people would want to live in and what about the infrastructure. All the offical government buildings and such. What about the people who have jobs in each respective country? It's complicated.
I understand what you are saying old horse but frankly, those problems belong to the Israelis. They should have thought about such things before the began the aggression. It would be difficult granted but not impossible.

When India and all the other countries stolen by imperialist Britain wanted their lands back, we gave it to them. We didn't say 'Oh dear! Its so difficult!! What about moving all those to the countrys the people would want to live in and what about the infrastructure. What about all the official government buildings and such? What about the people who have jobs in each respective country?

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Originally Posted by Stevomeo View Post
A little excerpt from the German media (just for some balance).
My friend! You are wasting your energy with this because nobody, least of all me, is denying that the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel. What you are losing sight of OR deliberately ignoring is the REASON WHY the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israel.

Quote:
Solidifies my point about the Palestinians using civilian areas to launch their missiles from.
OK...so tell us what you would do. You have a couple of badly made and inaccurate rockets as your defence against a barrage of highly sophisticated, highly accurate laser guided missiles. Where are you going to launch your rockets from? Are you going to set them all up in an open area such as a field where they will all be wiped out with a single strike from a laser-guided weapon - or are you going to make it as difficult as possible for them to be destroyed? Tell us what you would do if you were directing the Palestinian attack against a highly sophisticated, heavily armed invading army. The Palestinians are fighting a guerilla campaign and in guerilla campaigns you do not stand face to face with the enemy.

Do you think the French Resistance in WWII were wrong to hide amongst the people??

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A response from Gaza did not take long, and so far, Palestinian extremists have launched nearly 1,000 rockets from the Gaza Strip, killing five Israelis and wounding dozens of others.
The last I heard from the BBC last night was that there had been three Israeli deaths. But even if I give you five, compare that with over 120 Palestinians killed. Retaliation comparable to the attack??? I don't think so!

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I'd still like to know why the Israelis have been allowed to continue to expand in violation of International law?
It's because they are being supported by America and Britain who veto any action against them. Do you know how much money your country piles into Israel whilst your own citizens are losing their jobs and being forced to live off hand-outs from soup kitchens??

"....the US is giving Israel $3 billion in direct foreign aid every year and, according to Congressman James Traficant, another $12-17 billion in indirect aid such as valuable military equipment deemed “scrapped,......”
http://thebilzerianreport.com/how-mu...rage-american/

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Could this situation not be settled via the UN sending in ground forces to take control of the situation?
Possibly... but I think only after an Israeli withdrawal.

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Originally Posted by GradStdnt View Post
I have always wondered why the other Arab countries don't take them in, such as Lebanon or Jordon.
Probably because they think that if they take them in, Israel will have even more undefended, empty land to plant their flag on.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:46 AM   #48
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Obviously from the discussion here it is VERY complicated and a difficult situation to resolve. I see no solution at this point. It appears there will have to be a war and the spoils go to the victor.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:02 AM   #49
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First of all whether Israel belongs there or not can be debated. Just read your Bible (if you have one). I see comments like "Israel got themselves into a jamb"is obsurd. Since 2009 there have been over 8,000 rockets lobbed from Gaza. I think Israel has shown great restraint simply because we asked them to. Our leaders are afraid of terrorists. instaed of showing strength. We try to appease them. I would have been in there kicking ass after the first rocket.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:22 AM   #50
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The reason land was given to Israel after 1946 is because it belonged to them in the first place. The Temple Mount is named because the Holy Temple used to sit where a mosque now sits. Being an ally means we commit to stand by them. How good is our word. Does loyalty mean nothing any more.
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