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Old 12-09-2012, 10:42 AM   #61
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Choosing to be gay. Not choosing to be gay. These things are irrelevant, I believe, in regards to entering heaven. I would say the some about someone who says they were gay and now are not gay. Irrelevant regarding entrance into heaven. These things are only of importance to the individual person dealing with gay issue on a persona level or as it relates to someone they know. I say these things because I have learned that, eventually, everyone goes to heaven. Some, however, get there sooner than others. How it that determined? Well, despite the very famous traditional Christian teaching that Christians are no longer under a law, I believe we are under a law. The author of Romans 2:13 makes it clear that there is a law and those who exercise it are the ones who are justified before God. To say that there is now law for Christians is to ignore Romans 2:13. Also, despite the belief that the bible is a Christian book, God is the God of all. Not just Christians. So, this means that the law being spoken of in Romans 2:13 does not pertain to just those who call themselves Christians. It is a law that is for all of humanity since all of humanity was created by God. Needful to say, one does not have to be a Christian to go to heaven since the law of Romans 2:13 doesn't require a person to be a Christian. Just as this law does not care if a person is a Jew or otherwise. The law is based on how you treat your neighbor. Love thy neighbor as thyself is the law that justifies one before God. Do you have to be a Christian in order to love thy neighbor as thyself? No. Anyone is capable of loving their neighbor as self. That's the beauty of the Good News. Albeit, lost in traditional Christian thinking. God does not ask that you become a part of a certain religious affiliation. Mankind asks that. God just wants you to love thy neighbor as thyself and if you are a doer of this Law, you will be justified before God. When things are measure in light of this Law, right from wrong should typically be easy to discern. And, yes, doing so will cause you to rethink long held beliefs, but that is what growing is all about: Separating the wheat from the chaff. So, whether you were really ever gay in the first place or you just got involved in same sex relationships when your orientation was never innately so (due to abuse), it has not effect, as I see it, on your entrance into heaven. It's more about how you feel, individually, about the issue and whether you're at peace with self and others. Being gay does not determine your entrance into eternity with God. Being straight does not either. It's basically how you treat your fellow man. Look at the story of the Good Samaritan. It mattered not who held what title int this story. It mattered not what race someone was associated with. What mattered was how the characters in the story treated their fellow man. Recommended books for you to read so you too will discover this gradually revelation are listed below.

1. "The Jesus Secret"
2. "The Jerome Conspiracy"
3. "The Hidden Bible"
4. "Breaking The Romans Code"
5. "Paul On Homosexuality"

All books are by author, Michael Wood. Wood also has another book pending release dealing with Pauline paradoxes which reveal that the many questions I believe many Christians seem to have, but often do not vocalize, can be resolved in one sentence. He speaks to bible scholars Douglas Campbell, Dale Martin, Bart Ehrman, Jason Staples, Paul Miller, and maybe others who take a look at Michael Wood's findings and, according to Michael Wood, these bible scholars are in agreement with him. Based on what the books listed above reveal thus far, I believe Wood's next book will be quite as effective as the others. Skepticism is expected. I was skeptical too. However, after I read his first few books, what I have been alluding to prior to reading his books was confirmed. Everyone goes to heaven. I learned new things as well, which is to be expected. Because, let's face it, we don't know everything there is to know. We never will. But, there is always more to know than just what you've been taught or told. You cannot deny that Christian tradition has taught that there is no law to follow while, at the same time, Romans 2:13 is starring you right in the face. The contradictions of this information are revealed by Michael Wood's books. Loving thy neighbor as thyself is the Law Of Christ and any serious Christian or person who seeks to follow the heart of God (ie. any non-Christian) should take it upon themselves to look into what I have mentioned and shared with you.
Have you ever considered writing in paragraphs??
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:12 AM   #62
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Have you ever considered writing in paragraphs??
Hi. The number of paragraphs in my post is of far less importance than the content of my post. Nonetheless, I believe there are two paragraphs in my original post I have, however, re-read my post and put a few more paragraphs in there. As well as a few more sentences When I originally was typing it, I was merely typing my thoughts as to not lose what I was trying to focus on. Which was the content. Thanks.

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Old 12-09-2012, 11:58 AM   #63
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It's better...but the contents is still your unsubstantiated 'belief'.
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:06 PM   #64
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It's better...but the contents is still your unsubstantiated 'belief'.
Faith really doesn't require proof or verification. Unless, of course, one's faith is only based on what is proven or verified. For me, faith has to make sense. If faith is just a bunch of information that's been given to me, traditionally, yet it makes no sense as a whole, that faith will not be my faith for very long. To you, I say read the books. You will learn the verified information they are based on. Or, do not read. I am merely sharing.

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Old 12-09-2012, 01:09 PM   #65
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David & Jonathon-Homosexuals?

1 Samuel 16:12-...Now he (David) was ruddy and withal of a beautiful countenance and goodly to look to...
1 Samuel 18:1-4-And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathon was knit with the soul of David and Jonathon loved him as his own soul.
3) Then Jonathon and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 4) And Jonathon stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow and to his girdle.
1 Samuel 19:2-But Jonathon Saul's son delighted much in David ... .
1 Samuel 20:17-And Jonathon then caused David to swear again because he loved him as he loved his own soul.
1 Samuel 20:30-Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathon, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion of thy mother's nakedness?
(Now, the same passage in the RSV):
1Samuel 20:30-Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathon, and he said to him, "You son of a perverse rebellious woman, do I not know that you have chosen the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of your mother's nakedness?
((And just what does Jonathon's mother's nakedness have to do with anything? Nothing. It is the same kind of sexual innuendo of Hebrew linguistic euphamism as found at Leviticus
18:7 (for example): The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover. King Saul is about to make a formal charge but obviously does not follow
through for Jonathon's sake.))
1 Samuel 20:41-...David arose...and bowed himself three times and they kissed one another, and wept one with another until David exceeded.
2 Samuel 1:26-I am distressed for thee my brother Jonathon, very pleasant hast thou been unto me, THY LOVE FOR ME WAS WONDERFUL, PASSING THE LOVE OF A WOMAN. (!)
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:34 PM   #66
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Faith really doesn't require proof or verification. Unless, of course, one's faith is only based on what is proven or verified. For me, faith has to make sense. If faith is just a bunch of information that's been given to me, traditionally, yet it makes no sense as a whole, that faith will not be my faith for very long.
So faith has to "make sense" to you huh? Well why don't you give us an example of when it would be sensible to 'believe' that something is true when there is no evidence that it is and often, evidence to show what is being accepted as truth (via faith) is provably 'not true'.

I say that your 'Faith' is what you use when the evidence tells you what you don't want to be true. It is the last refuge of those that have had their arguments defeated by logic and reason.

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To you, I say read the books. You will learn the verified information they are based on. Or, do not read. I am merely sharing.
Do you really think people are going to make the effort of buying books or even going to the library to get them. Some people like myself can't so why don't you simple put forward your best evidence for claiming that your beliefs are true. After all, the burden of proof falls on you to support your claim that 'God' exists. It is not for us to go to the trouble of collecting books. You can't claim that the evidence is 'out there' and then tell us to go and look for it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:42 PM   #67
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If faith is just a bunch of information that's been given to me, traditionally, yet it makes no sense as a whole, that faith will not be my faith for very long.
...but that is exactly what faith is. It has no 'evidence' to support it. If it DID have evidence to support it then 'faith' would not be required to believe would it?

Faith is just as you described it....a bunch of information that's been given traditionally, without evidence, that can't be verified but is believed without question to be true.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:53 AM   #68
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...but that is exactly what faith is. It has no 'evidence' to support it. If it DID have evidence to support it then 'faith' would not be required to believe would it?

Faith is just as you described it....a bunch of information that's been given traditionally, without evidence, that can't be verified but is believed without question to be true.
I kind of thought about America and North Korea while reading this. Both countries teach the citizens of those countries that their country is the best in the world, yet both are wrong.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:38 AM   #69
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I kind of thought about America and North Korea while reading this. Both countries teach the citizens of those countries that their country is the best in the world, yet both are wrong.
Indeed...and whilst there is sufficient and verifiable evidence that those countries are not the best in the world the occupants of them dismiss the verifiable evidence and rely instead on 'faith' to persuade them that they are the best. A classic example of how 'faith' has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with 'truth'.
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Old 12-15-2012, 11:57 AM   #70
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So faith has to "make sense" to you huh? Well why don't you give us an example of when it would be sensible to 'believe' that something is true when there is no evidence that it is and often, evidence to show what is being accepted as truth (via faith) is provably 'not true'.

I say that your 'Faith' is what you use when the evidence tells you what you don't want to be true. It is the last refuge of those that have had their arguments defeated by logic and reason.

Do you really think people are going to make the effort of buying books or even going to the library to get them. Some people like myself can't so why don't you simple put forward your best evidence for claiming that your beliefs are true. After all, the burden of proof falls on you to support your claim that 'God' exists. It is not for us to go to the trouble of collecting books. You can't claim that the evidence is 'out there' and then tell us to go and look for it.

The details of what I consider my faith has to make sense to me. I did not say that the idea of having faith, in general, has to make sense to me. I am aware that believing in things that cannot be proven or seen does not make sense on some level. But, that is what faith is: Believing in something that cannot be seen or proven. Although, I know the definition can also include things that can be seen and proven as well. It is not my job to prove God to anyone. Nor is it my job to prove what I believe to be true. I am not the type of person who would say, "What I believe is true and you're wrong!" I don't know that for sure, so why would I say that? I just believe what I believe for the reasons that I believe it and it's true to me. That's all that really matters. Whether someone believes me or decides to look into books I suggested is irrelevant to me and what I believe.
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