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Old 12-11-2012, 07:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by AcidKiss View Post
You betcha Im going to enjoy my "mandatory" overtime. What,you scared to work hard union pussy?

Lets put this in perspective now.....non union workers make 3.2% less an hour. Uaw worker at gm starts at $17 an hour....so that means non union makes $16.45 an hour. But hold on, union dues are 1.15% of total monrhly income including overtime,so this lowers the wage gap to 2.05% for a 40 hour work week,so for those who arent scared of overtime,it could mean non union worker can actually make more than union worker.

Union is nothing more than organized extortion.
The state of Arizona passed the Personnel Reform Law this year which moved all "covered" employees to "uncovered" status. When the law came into affect, the Dept. of Revenue where my wife works, the first thing they did was flex their muscles by making employees working on certain projects be available 24/7. No more pay for overtime, unlimited hours, be on call at their whim, cancelled scheduled vacations, more. We as people have to understand that it is human nature to be corrupt and when you strip employees of their protections the corruption takes off like cancer. Jan Brewer on national TV bragged about her success in passing Personnel Reform and I quote, " it will now be easier to fire workers who do not perform". Really? Who wants to work in an environment where at the supervisors whim can walk you out the door? People need protections in the workplace and it's not always about money.
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:26 AM   #12
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Default Telling ....

I think it is telling that Michigan Teachers are calling in sick today to protest the new Right To Work law in MI.

In the public schools in Detroit, Mich., according to the U.S. Department of Education, only 7 percent of the eighth graders are grade-level proficient or better in reading.

So does anyone see a correlation there?
Have incompetent teachers been protected by their union to the detriment of the kids?? Or is it the kid's fault?
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Old 12-11-2012, 08:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by hrdguera View Post
I think it is telling that Michigan Teachers are calling in sick today to protest the new Right To Work law in MI.

In the public schools in Detroit, Mich., according to the U.S. Department of Education, only 7 percent of the eighth graders are grade-level proficient or better in reading.

So does anyone see a correlation there?
Have incompetent teachers been protected by their union to the detriment of the kids?? Or is it the kid's fault?
It's both and the parents. You can't teach a kid that doesn't want to learn, no matter how great a teacher they are.

I wonder if those stats you posted take into account the teachers that come straight out of college, take the inner city job, just to say they have one. Then after a year, they transfer out, to a suburban school, where pay is higher and the kids want to learn.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:15 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by hrdguera View Post
I think it is telling that Michigan Teachers are calling in sick today to protest the new Right To Work law in MI.

In the public schools in Detroit, Mich., according to the U.S. Department of Education, only 7 percent of the eighth graders are grade-level proficient or better in reading.

So does anyone see a correlation there?
Have incompetent teachers been protected by their union to the detriment of the kids?? Or is it the kid's fault?
I think if you look into it you will find that "right to work (for less $)" states have lower educational achievement levels.

The worst achievement levels in education are in "red states" that just happen to be "right to work" states. Out of the top ten worst achievement states 8 are right to work states:
http://247wallst.com/2012/10/15/164232/5/
The notable exception is WV, not a right to work state mainly because of coal mining.

Good write up, page 4 has general effects relating to funding of education:
http://umaine.edu/ble/files/2011/01/...oWork_Laws.pdf

Only vaguely related, but interesting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...igans-economy/
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Last edited by madmax; 12-11-2012 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 09:59 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by madmax View Post
I think if you look into it you will find that "right to work (for less $)" states have lower educational achievement levels.

The worst achievement levels in education are in "red states" that just happen to be "right to work" states. Out of the top ten worst achievement states 8 are right to work states:
http://247wallst.com/2012/10/15/164232/5/
The notable exception is WV, not a right to work state mainly because of coal mining.

Good write up, page 4 has general effects relating to funding of education:
http://umaine.edu/ble/files/2011/01/...oWork_Laws.pdf

Only vaguely related, but interesting:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...igans-economy/
Well, these same teachers that are calling in sick, and their union cohorts and supporters are now saying, "There will be blood."

Does anyone wonder why the trend is going away form Public Employee and private employee unions? They don't get what they want and so they think it is alright to go viral and get violent? Look up the word extortion. That is what they know and that is what they engage in constantly.

How can you compare poor performance in "Red States" with union states where the student performance is just as dismal and try to affix the cause as a lack of unions in those same Red State?
Nice try, but fail.

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Old 12-11-2012, 10:25 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by hrdguera View Post
Well, these same teachers that are calling in sick, and their union cohorts and supporters are now saying, "There will be blood."

Does anyone wonder why the trend is going away form Public Employee and private employee unions? They don't get what they want and so they think it is alright to go viral and get violent? Look up the word extortion. That is what they know and that is what they engage in constantly.
Violent? When has any union action been violent? The actions in Wisconsin last year were very orderly and peaceful. The ones in MI have been too.
"There will be blood" is a common metaphor, in this case by a MI legislator with overactive rhetorical tendencies.

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Originally Posted by hrdguera View Post
How can you compare poor performance in "Red States" with union states where the student performance is just as dismal and try to affix the cause as a lack of unions in those same Red State?
Nice try, but fail.
The fail is that you are not seeing the evidence. Student performance is lower in red states in general. Another measure of this is education level, (by grade level). Here is a graphic of achievement level, bachelor of science (4 year degree) for the nation. Note the low levels (white or light colors) in the red and RTW states.
Name:  bs.jpg
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The quality of public education is reflected in the achievement levels shown in this graphic.
I'm not trying to "affix the cause as a lack of unions" directly. I think the correlation runs deeper, only a small bit of that has to do with teachers unions. I think a greater effect is that the RTW states have lower tax revenues to fund schools. Also, red states tend to focus less on education as a priority.
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Last edited by madmax; 12-11-2012 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:46 PM   #17
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Seems to me I never witnessed any Tea Party folks act like this.
http://youtu.be/u_F3oev06i0

Shameless violence in the name of organized labor. Take one look at Detroit and see how that worked out.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:25 AM   #18
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Angry Terrible Economy made this possible

People need to eat. Republicans say hey the jobs aren't here because of the unions. People believe it. People accept the republican plan to save the state. People need to eat, right. So the unions get beat down. People get jobs and work for less pay and benefits. Those republicans will not stop here. No sir. They will keep pushing and pushing. They want you to work for the least amount you will accept. They represent corporations and more accurately they represent the interest of the ultra wealthy who want more and more profits. And they will push you until you start getting pissed off to the point that you all start to organize. But that might take another twenty years. There was a time in America where corporations were happy making a profit. They didn't need to maximize profit at the expense of everything else. But today they no longer believe in the sustainability of America or even in the value of America as a country to be cherished and appreciated. They want the money. Fuck everything else. You know how those workers in third world countries work for 3 dollars a day. Well, that is what they would love to see happen here. They would do it to you if they could. Why do you think they have a large interest in trying to overturn minimum wage laws. They say, let the markets decide. They will work you for 3 an hour if they can. These corporations make plenty of profit. They can easily afford to pay their workers a living wage. They don't want to because they want to suck all that money to the top...top management and top profits. The sheeple will follow. Times are hard. They need to eat.
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:50 PM   #19
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People need to eat. Republicans say hey the jobs aren't here because of the unions. People believe it. People accept the republican plan to save the state. People need to eat, right. So the unions get beat down. People get jobs and work for less pay and benefits. Those republicans will not stop here. No sir. They will keep pushing and pushing. They want you to work for the least amount you will accept. They represent corporations and more accurately they represent the interest of the ultra wealthy who want more and more profits. And they will push you until you start getting pissed off to the point that you all start to organize. But that might take another twenty years. There was a time in America where corporations were happy making a profit. They didn't need to maximize profit at the expense of everything else. But today they no longer believe in the sustainability of America or even in the value of America as a country to be cherished and appreciated. They want the money. Fuck everything else. You know how those workers in third world countries work for 3 dollars a day. Well, that is what they would love to see happen here. They would do it to you if they could. Why do you think they have a large interest in trying to overturn minimum wage laws. They say, let the markets decide. They will work you for 3 an hour if they can. These corporations make plenty of profit. They can easily afford to pay their workers a living wage. They don't want to because they want to suck all that money to the top...top management and top profits. The sheeple will follow. Times are hard. They need to eat.

As far as I know I don't believe that the GOP wants anyone to work for peanut size wages. I have no problem with unions in theory, but in practice they have demonstrated many unfavorable traits. Why is it that workers at foreign auto plants based here in the US resist attempts to be unionized by the UAW? BMW, Mercedes Benz, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Toyota...did I miss any....?

The unions and their unholy alliances are well documented. When such a time comes when unions return to their primary mission of protecting worker's rights instead of consolidating their power and marinating in the many pools of corruption, they will again become a respectable entity worthy of reverence.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:00 PM   #20
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As far as I know I don't believe that the GOP wants anyone to work for peanut size wages. I have no problem with unions in theory, but in practice they have demonstrated many unfavorable traits. Why is it that workers at foreign auto plants based here in the US resist attempts to be unionized by the UAW? BMW, Mercedes Benz, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Nissan, Toyota...did I miss any....?

The unions and their unholy alliances are well documented. When such a time comes when unions return to their primary mission of protecting worker's rights instead of consolidating their power and marinating in the many pools of corruption, they will again become a respectable entity worthy of reverence.
The unholy alliances are a thing of the past. Its how the unions survived against the big bucks of industry. You and I have both been in unions. I couldn't agree more that the union mentality needs an overhaul. However, the absence of unions would be disasterous for working class Americans.

I know how and why unions were "resisted" in southern state FOREIGN automakers: get the plants at any cost! Tax incentives, right to work laws... because of the poverty in those states. It is a step above opening a plant in a 3rd world country. It diminishes our stature. BMW and Mercedes workers in Germany make MORE than UAW workers in Detroit!

I worked for a major aerospace company in the early 2000s in AZ. There was a push for unionization of the production workers. The company pushed hard and lobbied hard against it, saying it would limit and eliminate jobs. The workers narrowly defeated the motion. Two years later the company shut down US production and moved it all to Mexico and the Czech Republic. How is that for a nice "thank you" (spelled "fuck you") to the workers that bought the company line. They got screwed royally. That was a bitter reminder of why unions are still relevant today.
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