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Old 12-28-2012, 08:29 AM   #11
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I think you're spot on!
YOU would!
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:07 PM   #12
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Is trained, licensed parent/volunteers the solution to our schools?


WASHINGTON (AP) — The student's attack began with a shotgun blast through the windows of a California high school. Rich Agundez, the El Cajon policeman assigned to the school, felt his mind shift into overdrive.

People yelled at him amid the chaos but he didn't hear. He experienced "a tunnel vision of concentration."

While two teachers and three students were injured when the glass shattered in the 2001 attack on Granite Hills High School, Agundez confronted the assailant and wounded him before he could get inside the school and use his second weapon, a handgun.

The National Rifle Association's response to a Connecticut school massacre envisions, in part, having trained, armed volunteers in every school in America. But Agundez, school safety experts and school board members say there's a huge difference between a trained law enforcement officer who becomes part of the school family — and a guard with a gun.

The NRA's proposal has sparked a debate across the country as gun control rises once again as a national issue. President Barack Obama promised to present a plan in January to confront gun violence in the aftermath of the killing of 20 Sandy Hook Elementary School students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

Agundez said what happened before the shooting in the San Diego County school should frame the debate over the NRA's proposal.

With a shooting at another county school just weeks before, Agundez had trained the staff in how to lock down the school, assigned evacuation points, instructed teachers to lock doors, close curtains and turn off the lights. He even told them computers should be used where possible to communicate, to lessen the chaos.

And his training? A former SWAT team member, Agundez' preparation placed him in simulated stressful situations and taught him to evade a shooter's bullets. And the kids in the school knew to follow his advice because they knew him. He spoke in their classrooms and counseled them when they came to him with problems.

In the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre, school boards, administrators, teachers and parents are reviewing their security measures.

School security officers can range from the best-trained police officers to unarmed private guards. Some big-city districts with gang problems and crime formed their own police agencies years ago. Others, after the murder of 13 people at Columbine High School in 1999, started joint agreements with local police departments to have officers assigned to schools — even though that was no guarantee of preventing violence. A trained police officer at Columbine confronted one of two shooters but couldn't prevent the death of 13 people.

"Our association would be uncomfortable with volunteers," said Mo Canady, executive director of the National Association of School Resource Officers — whose members are mostly trained law enforcement officers who "become part of the school family.'"

Canady questioned how police officers responding to reports of a shooter would know whether the person with a gun is a volunteer or the assailant.

Former Rep. Asa Hutchinson, who also was a top Homeland Security official and will head the NRA effort, said the program will have two key elements.

One is a model security plan "based on the latest, most up-to-date technical information from the foremost experts in their fields." Each school could tweak the plan to its own circumstances, and "armed, trained, qualified school security personnel will be but one element."

The second element may prove the more controversial because, to avoid massive funding for local authorities, it would use volunteers. Hutchinson said in his home state of Arkansas, his son was a volunteer with a local group "Watchdog Dads," who volunteered at schools to patrol playgrounds and provide added security.

He said retired police officers, former members of the military or rescue personnel would be among those likely to volunteer.

There's even debate over whether anyone should have a gun in a school, even a trained law enforcement officer.

"In general teachers don't want guns in schools period," said Dennis Van Roekel, president of the National Education Association, one of the two large unions representing teachers. He added that one size does not fit all districts and said the union has supported schools that wanted a trained officer. Most teachers, he said, do not want to be armed themselves.

"It's a school. It's not a place where guns should be," he commented.

The security situation around the country is mixed.

—Maricopa County, Ariz., Sheriff Joe Arpaio says he has the authority to mobilize private citizens to fight crime and plans to post armed private posse members around the perimeter of schools. He said he hasn't spoken to specific school districts and doesn't plan to have the citizen posse members inside the buildings.

—The Snohomish School District north of Seattle got rid of its school officers because of the expense.

—The Las Vegas-based Clark County School District has its own police department and places armed officers in and around its 49 high school campuses. Officers patrol outside elementary and middle schools. The Washoe County School District in Nevada also has a police force, but it was only about a decade ago that the officers were authorized to carry guns on campus.

—In Milwaukee, a dozen city police officers cover the school district but spend most of their time in seven of the 25 high schools. In Madison, Wis., an armed police officer has worked in each of the district's four high schools since the mid-1990s.

—For the last five years, an armed police officer has worked in each of the two high schools and three middle schools in Champaign, Ill. Board of Education member Kristine Chalifoux said there are no plans to increase security, adding, "I don't want our country to become an armed police state."

—A Utah group is offering free concealed-weapons permit training for teachers as a result of the Connecticut shootings. Arizona Attorney General Tom Horne proposed a plan to allow one educator in each school to carry a gun.

Ed Massey, vice chairman of the Boone County, Ky., school board and president of the National School Boards Association, said his district has nine trained law enforcement officers for 23 schools and "would love to have one in every school."

"They bring a sense of security and have done tremendous work in deterring problems in school," he said. "The number of expulsions have dramatically decreased. We used to have 15 or 20 a year. Now we have one or two in the last three years."

An officer, he said, "is not just a hired gun. They have an office in the school. They are trained in crisis management, handling mass casualties and medical emergencies."

He said a poster given out by the local sheriff's department shows one of the officers and talks about literacy and reading.

Kenneth Trump, president of the National School Safety and Security Services consulting firm, said having trained officers in schools is "more of a prevention program than a reactive program if you have the right officers who want to work with kids."

But he also criticized a drop in funding for school security, saying, "Congress and the last two administrations have chipped away to the point of elimination of every program for school security and emergency planning."

Dr. Ronald Stephens, executive director of the National School Safety Center that provides training to schools, said the NRA's suggestion of using volunteers "is a whole new concept of school safety." He questioned whether the NRA wants to bring the best sharpshooters on campus.

"How is that going to create a positive atmosphere for young people?" he asked. "How does that work on the prevention side?"

Agundez, 52, who retired as a policeman in 2010, learned shortly before his retirement just how much his trained reaction to a shooter affected students at Granite Hills High.

He was writing a traffic ticket and the driver's whole body started shaking. He had been a student that day nine years earlier.

"He gave me a hug," Agundez recalled. "He said 'I always wanted to thank you.' You saved our lives."


http://news.yahoo.com/experts-traine...-politics.html
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:08 PM   #13
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LOL!!!
Eclectic tastes! That's what you call it? OK....

Geezus man - I wish no one ill will. I don't have to single anyone out.
Even though you have a problem with truth and conspiracy theory paranoia that is no cause for wishing "ill will" on you. Actually, I hope you seek out the mental health help you need, because I care. Happy New Year.
Ha, touche!
Maybe you could recommend one of your own therapists? You are sure to have had one or two already judging from your posts over the last few years. What was their specialty????

Anyway, I'm at peace with who and what I am. I feel better than I have in years. The only physical problem besides age is I have is torn and mangled menisci in both legs from too many back-packing trips in the mountains and martial art matches when I was a kid in my 20's. It seems we pay for every broken bone twice .... once when it happens and again as we age.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:20 PM   #14
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Ha, touche!
Maybe you could recommend one of your own therapists? You are sure to have had one or two already judging from your posts over the last few years. What was their specialty????

Anyway, I'm at peace with who and what I am. I feel better than I have in years. The only physical problem besides age is I have is torn and mangled menisci in both legs from too many back-packing trips in the mountains and martial art matches when I was a kid in my 20's. It seems we pay for every broken bone twice .... once when it happens and again as we age.
Actually a good friend of mine in a therapist. She is volunteering at the fire station next to Sandy Hook on Monday. Lots of first responders with difficulty in dealing with what they saw and had to deal with.

She knows me well and says I am "intense" - lol.

I broke 2 fingers in martial arts... never try to block a kick with an open hand.

I'm cool with you HG...except when you can't figure out how to shut off the bullshit machine.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:15 AM   #15
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Placing "armed guards" is neither well thought out, nor economically feasible. You're just adding another gun into the scenario. Will another gun stop a situation like Sandy Hook? I doubt it, for the reasons stated before: you can't have a high level of alert consistently. A less than perfect armed guard is another potential casualty and a source of further firepower. Assault weapons have been a problem for quite a while now. No one "needs" a weapon like this.

I'm not for a "ban" on weapons, most aren't. The vast majority are for limiting the types of weapons designed for mass killing, including high capacity magazines.
I don't think I've advocated for armed guards. But it is an idea worth consideration. As to economically feasible - aren't you saying then that the lives of our children aren't worth protecting? The cost of placing undercover armed security in each school district would be prohibitive? But it's OK for the wealthy to protect their children with armed men?

IMO the knowledge that there MIGHT be armed resistance at the schools might cause the nutjobs to pick elsewhere. Like a movie theater. Funny how they always pick a place where guns are banned.

Yes, the armed guards won't always be there. Yes, some will be poorly trained and the first to go. And oh my god the killer might gain a single handgun to add to whatever he already has. I do not offer a perfect world solution to nutjob killers. BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE.

However, IMO every scenario offered by your side is useless. Worse than useless as it gives ignorant people the false impression that we have done something and are safer. It preys on the emotional fear people with little exposure to how firearms work.

This is why I am asking for a specific suggestion. Put your plan in writing and be specific. WHICH guns would you ban? WHAT capacity is OK for you? Tell us all what law you would pass if you were president with a congress willing to do your bidding. And I will respond to any problems I see with it from my side. No snark.

I really don't have a problem with those who have opposing views. But to have them based on emotion and then to presume the moral high ground such as some on this thread have done, well in their case the snark will come. But if you think you have a solution to mass shootings present it without being insulting and I will reply in kind.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:32 AM   #16
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Yep, drugging the children so they would be more tractable in class is certainly something that might be considered a factor.
When a certain teacher of my own child suggested that in 1981 (in Montessori no less) I withdrew my child from that environment. It turned out that in our case that teachers and administrators that recommended children to a certain psychologist / psychiatrist couple were invited to exclusive seasonal parties held at the couple's home. Thus, the lowly paid teachers were then considered and partied with the "in crowd." My own investigation uncovered an ever growing number of private and public school teachers that were ensnared in the revolving door of teacher - psychologist / psychiatrist recruitment of patients from the student ranks to fill an ever growing profitable practice for the couple. But alas, even after discussing this situation with certain other parents and teachers nothing was done and the practice continued even though at the time studies were inconclusive concerning the long term use of drugs like Ritalin (and others) on students diagnosed with ADHD, ADD, CADHD, CADD, and the other acronyms that were in vogue at the time. So, even to the casual observer to make this connection between childhood drug use and the eventual violence eruptions later in life is not surprising to me at all. Every action has a reaction.

The legal drug culture that evolved in the early 60's is still going on and seems to have long lasting ramifications. I'm not making a blanket accusation because I do know of children that benefited from certain drugs to control their behavior. But every action also may have an unplanned reaction too. Yesterday's childhood zombie might be tomorrow's nut-case.

It was a good marketing idea but at what cost later?

I wonder if Max was one of those kids?

Happy New Year folks and friends. I'm going to be off the "grid" but still working. Seems the weather beat up a lot of people and places and they need power.
I haven't a clue how or if there is a correlation between the drugging of our troubled kids and mass shootings. The timing is similar. However, it could be other factors. I think many of these kids would have been "satisfied" in the past to leave a suicide note telling the world how much they hate certain people and this will show them. NOW they get famous and on TV by killing a bunch of innocent people. I don't think there is a single specific cause or solution.

As for madmax I don't know him or her. And I am new around here. But so far he/she has been respectful towards me and what I've posted so I'm agonna be nice back. Different opinions I respect. Snarky attitudes like one other individual on this board I have no regard for. It isn't the difference of opinion. It's lack of respect that prevents progress.

Happy New Year.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:11 AM   #17
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I don't think I've advocated for armed guards. But it is an idea worth consideration. As to economically feasible - aren't you saying then that the lives of our children aren't worth protecting? The cost of placing undercover armed security in each school district would be prohibitive? But it's OK for the wealthy to protect their children with armed men?
YOu may not have advocated it, but others on here and the NRA has. Of course the lives of our children are worth protecting. We aren't exactly swimming in cash though... our choices need to be well thought out, effective, and have no serious unintended consequences. You simply can't get QUALITY security everywhere. I don't want a George Zimmerman "protecting" my child, thank you.

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IMO the knowledge that there MIGHT be armed resistance at the schools might cause the nutjobs to pick elsewhere. Like a movie theater. Funny how they always pick a place where guns are banned.
You also aren't answering the question I proposed: There is always an opening... kids coming to or leaving school, the busses, open field school events.

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Yes, the armed guards won't always be there. Yes, some will be poorly trained and the first to go. And oh my god the killer might gain a single handgun to add to whatever he already has. I do not offer a perfect world solution to nutjob killers. BECAUSE THERE ISN'T ONE.
Bingo!

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However, IMO every scenario offered by your side is useless. Worse than useless as it gives ignorant people the false impression that we have done something and are safer. It preys on the emotional fear people with little exposure to how firearms work.
My side? WTF is my side? I am neither pro-gun or anti-gun. I am a gun owner but I am willing to consider any logical and practical solution.
Heck - I taught a girlfriend how to shoot when she entered the police academy! I'm not an "expert" but I'm also not your scenario of "little exposure".

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This is why I am asking for a specific suggestion. Put your plan in writing and be specific. WHICH guns would you ban? WHAT capacity is OK for you? Tell us all what law you would pass if you were president with a congress willing to do your bidding. And I will respond to any problems I see with it from my side. No snark.
I don't have a solution either. I have no problem with an assault weapon ban. There is no logical "need" to own one. I think we need to do a better job of addressing mental health.

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I really don't have a problem with those who have opposing views. But to have them based on emotion and then to presume the moral high ground such as some on this thread have done, well in their case the snark will come. But if you think you have a solution to mass shootings present it without being insulting and I will reply in kind.
Emotions run both ways. The NRA "pry it from my cold dead hands" is pretty emotional, don't you think? The run on guns after these events is rather emotional too, and lacking logic.

The problem is: there is no magic solution to this. I can understand where Plad is coming from with his views on banning weapons. But that simply won't happen.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:37 AM   #18
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I can understand where Plad is coming from with his views on banning weapons. But that simply won't happen.
Of course, banning weapons won't completely stop gun deaths, it hasn't here but it would SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the number, as it has done here and everywhere else in the world where weapons have been banned. I can't understand why ya'll aren't clamouring for that.
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Old 12-30-2012, 09:47 AM   #19
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Of course, banning weapons won't completely stop gun deaths, it hasn't here but it would SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the number, as it has done here and everywhere else in the world where weapons have been banned. I can't understand why ya'll aren't clamouring for that.
You are clammering to ban ALL weapons the same as the UK, but MAX is only talking about assault style weapons.... big difference in attitudes.
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Old 12-30-2012, 10:06 AM   #20
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You are clammering to ban ALL weapons the same as the UK, but MAX is only talking about assault style weapons.... big difference in attitudes.
No, I have no problem with people owning hunting shotguns (though I am at a loss to understand how anyone can take pleasure in taking the life of another living thing) or rifles used for target shooting ...as long as the restrictions I highlighted earlier in the thread were implemented.

...and 'all guns' are not banned in the UK or anywhere else in Europe for that matter. People still go hunting. People still belong to shooting clubs. We just can't own 'firearms' (meaning guns that fire bullets rather than shot cartridges). No handguns, automatic/semi-automatic weapons or assault type weapons, rapid-fire weapons etc. Nor are we allowed to carry any type of weapon on open view in public areas.
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