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Old 01-29-2013, 12:30 PM   #361
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The investigations may make those claims but we have the fox's watching the hen house. I believe the government did, by accident light the place up but looking at the big picture the government went rolling in there with armed agents, tanks, explosives, snipers, and a variety of other things. I believe it could have been handled differently. The government has blood on their hands as far as I am concerned and I don't believe having someone from the government doing the investigation is ethical. Again, this is the fox's watching the hen house scenario.
Wouldhe - You'll get no argument from me that the situation was handled poorly by the Feds. But, what evidence leads you to conclude that government caused the fire? Where did Danforth err? What leads you to conclude, unlike Liberty, that it was accidental and not intentional?
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:51 PM   #362
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Some thoughts.... I do not synpathize with the BD... when this many people are involved, much better care should have been taken.

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(1) Government agents did not start the fire at Waco;
I believe they did...albeit unintentionally. Again, IMO

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(2) Government agents did not shoot at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993;
Unless EVRY round is accounted for, would you believe this especially after they were fired upon?

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(3) Government agents did not improperly use the United States military;
IMO they did...they could have waited them out by securing the perimeter... this wasn't a military exercise.

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(4) Government agents did not engage in a massive conspiracy and cover-up. There is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of Attorney General Reno, the present and former director of the FBI, other high officials of the United States, or the individual members of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team who fired three pyrotechnic tear gas rounds on April 19, 1993.
It is a conspiracy to any degree until all the facts are known... from an independent source.

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(5) Responsibility for the tragedy at Waco rests with certain of the Branch Davidians and their leader, David Koresh, who shot and killed four ATF agents, wounded 20 others, shot at FBI agents trying to insert tear gas into the complex, burned down the complex, and shot at least 20 of their own people, including five children.
I agree here... using your own people to avert a tragedy that would SURELY happen is the crime... Koresh should have released everyone and fought by himself... his cause would have gone much further.
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Old 01-29-2013, 01:54 PM   #363
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I personally do have suspicion that it was intentional. The CS agent was introduced as a fine powder.
It was known that the powder was flammable.
It was known the Davidians were using non electric gas/gasoline lanterns.
If it was't intentional it was criminal ignorance of the situation.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:27 PM   #364
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Wouldhe - You'll get no argument from me that the situation was handled poorly by the Feds. But, what evidence leads you to conclude that government caused the fire? Where did Danforth err? What leads you to conclude, unlike Liberty, that it was accidental and not intentional?
First is distrust when it comes to the government screwing up and then using their own investigators just to conclude - we did nothing wrong!

They had that armored vehichle punch a hole through the wall and fire tear gas or whatever it was and was instrumental in starting a fire. I don't believe it was the governments intent on starting a fire, accidental. There was way too much law enforcement as well as other gun-toting agency's dog-piling the compound and they were responsible for the tragedy. Could have been handled differently.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:23 AM   #365
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In the Philippine newspapers today, President Aquino is alarmed at the number of armed robberies of late.

Now, there are very, very strict gun laws in the Philippines. Many policemen and security guards are not armed. Yet, the criminal element here almost operates with impunity because they often are the only ones with firearms.

Secondly, after being here awhile, I can attest the criminals are better adept at handling firearms. More policemen are killed than criminals captured.

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Old 02-08-2013, 01:56 PM   #366
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Default Mr. Stevens couldn't have said it better

This video is only about two and a half minutes long but that was long enough for him to express exactly what he thought when he addressed Congress.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...ually_the.html
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Old 02-09-2013, 10:34 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by dumbass View Post
This video is only about two and a half minutes long but that was long enough for him to express exactly what he thought when he addressed Congress.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate...ually_the.html

It's awesome to see people with such an honest and passionate message re-affirm his rights in front of a bunch of self absorbed politicians.
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:01 PM   #368
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I laugh at people so passionate about keeping their guns, when, no one is trying to take them away. Just make the overall process of having one, getting one, safer.

Anyone who wants to stop gun safety, is an idiot. That includes the nra.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:35 PM   #369
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I laugh at people so passionate about keeping their guns, when, no one is trying to take them away. Just make the overall process of having one, getting one, safer.

Anyone who wants to stop gun safety, is an idiot. That includes the nra.
You're drinking the Kool-Aid. There is nothing wrong with "gun safety". The problem is people that kill people. Read the proposal put forth by Senator Dianne Feinstein and tell me where anything she is proposing will make guns safer.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:41 PM   #370
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It's awesome to see people with such an honest and passionate message re-affirm his rights in front of a bunch of self absorbed politicians.
It is plain to see that the almost the entire room applauded him with the obvious exception of the those at the dais in the front of the room. They were in shock.
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