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Old 02-11-2013, 01:55 PM   #11
emilynghiem
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Originally Posted by pladecalvo View Post
Don't know about you folks but I find it frightening that there are people walking amongst us in the 21st century who still believe that illness is caused by 'demons'. What frightens me even more is that they are allowed to vote and affect all our futures.
To be more clear, the sickness is already there that the negative 'demonic' energy is attracted to. The "demonic" obsessions and voices are the SYMPTOMS or MANIFESTATION of the sickness, where the root cause is unforgiveness that weakens the spirit and allows negative thoughts to build up around memories and past conflicts not yet resolved, so these are projected and passed on.

I should clarify this by saying the SYMPTOMS of the criminal illness can manifest as demonic visions or voices. In the past this was recorded by patient and doctor testimony, from Eugene Coral Watts to Andrea Yates that they saw or heard things that compelled them to act on their sickness and kill people.
But today there is advanced technology that can record abnormal brain activity.

Science will show these are real symptoms Plad, no matter what level you attribute them to, mental or spiritual. Given enough replicable studies, the patterns will show the same process of sickness and of therapy and cure.

So not to worry, Plad. Science will soon be used to detect measure and prove these energies do manifest physically and change.

People once ostracized the first doctor who figured out there were invisible bacteria causing infection, before microscopes were developed to prove these existed. The bacteria or microorganism, do not necessarily cause the disease by themselves, but are attracted to open wounds that allow them to enter the bloodstream or brain, etc. They need to have a host. The same with demonic energies that can invade and take over a person's mind or will by unforgiveness and anger which attracts them in the first place, while healing love and compassion and prayers for forgiving past issues and generations allows these sick thoughts and energies to be REMOVED so the person can heal naturally.

Very similar to cleaning out wounds and killing off bacteria or viruses with antibiotics that have to be STRONG enough or else the infection comes back stronger.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:26 PM   #12
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Emily,

You have been on this forum for several years. If you do not know or understand my "philosophy," the more is the pity.

Nice hack job on my posts, by the way. You write speech snippets for Obama, too?

I could easily have written that there are no right answers as well.

When we specifically delimit ourselves to a particular subject, collectively we have agreed that one answer is most correct. For example, in mathematics, the convention is that 1 + 1 = 2. Yet, in many other arenas in life, 1 + 1 can equal 3 or billions or anything in-between.

"The world is flat." Before ridiculing this statement and burying the argument with tons of photographs from space, the technological advancements and tools available to society effectively creates a flat Earth. The phrase becomes part metaphysical and part idomatic.

You prefer to speak and address issues in terms of absolutes, the concept of idiom and parabolic speech. In this vein, you misquote and misinform very much like our Bible thumpers do with their selected scriptures. You skirt uncomfortable issues and try to twist my thoughts, at least, into something quite different than what I wrote and intended. I have called you on this before.

You want to believe that there is some really bad entity outside the human form. Fine. I could care less. Live in the Middle Ages or in a primitive society, for all I care. It is your insistence that such is the case that grates the nerves, like a A-B command gone beserk: "Prove to me . . . yada yada."

Stephen King wrote a real scary (and long) story called The Stand. At least, it was scary for about half the book, and then it plunged into the maudlin. Once he went down the road of an actual demon/devil that is responsible for mucking up the world, I found myself str***ling to finish the book.

But let's look at a more realistic study: Lord of the Flies by William Golding. Here we find a complete breakdown of society, not because of some external entity but as a result of the internal frailities of the human mind. It is amazing and frightening to realize the destructiveness of the human mind if given complete reedom to do as it wishes.

The Buddha stated that all the answers are within.

There is a magnetic field or bubble that surround the human being. Properly detected, one can determine the magnetic bubbles and tensions (a la the sun), but all of these originate within the human mind, not from the external.

I tire of hearing the best-liked phrase "You made me . . . ." Psychology tells us that no one can make us do anything or feel anything. It is the person who decides to act or feel based upon the reception of the impetus and a decision to react.

I tire, also, of the growing reliance on the idea that nothing that happens to us is our fault. Not only are we alienating ourselves from other people, we are alienating ourselves from ourselves.

As long as we concentrate on finding boogey men under our psychological beds to blame, the further we dengirate in a continuous spiral towards complete disintegration and destruction.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:30 PM   #13
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Now, to another tangent of this thread, Emily.

You keep posting some weird, new-age concept of Jesus. Since you have stepped into my backyard of theology, please provide some background and thought that supports this newest twist and corruption of the Christ philosophy.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
To be more clear, the sickness is already there that the negative 'demonic' energy is attracted to. The "demonic" obsessions and voices are the SYMPTOMS or MANIFESTATION of the sickness, where the root cause is unforgiveness that weakens the spirit and allows negative thoughts to build up around memories and past conflicts not yet resolved, so these are projected and passed on.

I should clarify this by saying the SYMPTOMS of the criminal illness can manifest as demonic visions or voices. In the past this was recorded by patient and doctor testimony, from Eugene Coral Watts to Andrea Yates that they saw or heard things that compelled them to act on their sickness and kill people.
But today there is advanced technology that can record abnormal brain activity.

Science will show these are real symptoms Plad, no matter what level you attribute them to, mental or spiritual. Given enough replicable studies, the patterns will show the same process of sickness and of therapy and cure.

So not to worry, Plad. Science will soon be used to detect measure and prove these energies do manifest physically and change.

People once ostracized the first doctor who figured out there were invisible bacteria causing infection, before microscopes were developed to prove these existed. The bacteria or microorganism, do not necessarily cause the disease by themselves, but are attracted to open wounds that allow them to enter the bloodstream or brain, etc. They need to have a host. The same with demonic energies that can invade and take over a person's mind or will by unforgiveness and anger which attracts them in the first place, while healing love and compassion and prayers for forgiving past issues and generations allows these sick thoughts and energies to be REMOVED so the person can heal naturally.

Very similar to cleaning out wounds and killing off bacteria or viruses with antibiotics that have to be STRONG enough or else the infection comes back stronger.
Oh shut up!
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:59 AM   #15
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Oh shut up!
Dear Plad: The scientific studies, when replicated and not just faith-based, will speak for themselves. And you're right, I won't have to anymore.
And you and I will both be EQUALLY relieved. And everyone else on here!

All the heavens and earth will rejoice when I can shut up already.

So I agree with you, the science is necessary!
Thank you, Plad. I AGREE this will shut me up!
My boyfriend will be glad also....
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:07 AM   #16
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Now, to another tangent of this thread, Emily.

You keep posting some weird, new-age concept of Jesus. Since you have stepped into my backyard of theology, please provide some background and thought that supports this newest twist and corruption of the Christ philosophy.
Dear Wallis:
1. Jesus as Justice is an old idea. The idea of Jesus being the Word or Laws of God that were always with God in heaven before they became incarnated on earth. So this means Justice, the authority of God over all laws and authorities, visible or invisible, in heaven or on earth. That is as old as the Word.

2. This does not contradict your notion that God must be all inclusive love and cannot be about judging and condemnation, as that would not be justice with mercy which is the message in the Bible. The Bible clearly states that we must forgive others as we ask to be forgiven. That is justice with mercy and that is what Christ Jesus stands for and fulfills. This is in the Bible and is nothing new.

When we discover how much it applies to us and changes our lives, then receiving this spirit of the message and meaning of Christ Jesus DOES 'make all things new' that is in Revelations 4.

Jesus added a third Commandment in John 13:34 that we should love one another as Jesus loves us, which joins the love of God and love of man as one.
So we are to love one another with unconditional love and forgiveness, with justice and mercy both, as God's love and justice are inclusive of all humanity; and not love with man's conditional system of justice that seeks to reward whom we favor and punishes those we are against. We are to rise above that selfish retributive type of justice and live by Christ Jesus Restorative Justice.

Justice and Mercy are already in the Bible as Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

3. This is nothing new, and it is consistent with what you are saying God's love and message are about, not judgment and condemnation based on hateful exclusion. The warnings against retributive justice are also in the Bible, about reaping what you sow, and if you judge others so will you also be judged.

Wallis I see a lot of commonality in what you and I are both trying to say. We both see that Sapphire's fundamental approach of rejecting others alienates people and does not speak to God's all inclusive encompassing love and truth as universal. The difference is that you keep approaching her and another fundamentalists using the same system of retributive judgment they practice which you and I both know to be conflicting. So you and they get stuck in judging and condemning each other! What I am asking to do differently is to include and practice the unconditional love forgiveness and acceptance of God, in order to resolve these issues in that spirit and in a healing environment not judgmental or divisive. So I am saying to demonstrate how the inclusive approach works, instead of only showing why the rejecting approach fails. We already showed that mutual rejection is the problem, now let's show that mutual inclusion is the solution!

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Old 02-12-2013, 10:18 AM   #17
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The Buddha stated that all the answers are within.
Yes, in terms of personal perception that only we can take responsibility for.

As for the things we are perceiving, we don't control the perceptions or information of others, so THAT part requires EXTERNAL interaction to make sure we identify and resolve conflicts with others (we don't control) and have the same information in order to reconcile our perceptions as much as possible.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:37 AM   #18
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Dear Plad: The scientific studies, when replicated and not just faith-based, will speak for themselves. And you're right, I won't have to anymore.
Quite...and there is absolutely zero evidence for your or clown Peck's claims.

Quote:
So I agree with you, the science is necessary!
Quite...and there is absolutely zero evidence for your or clown Peck's claims.

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My boyfriend will be glad also....
He should stick something in your mouth to shut you up.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:35 PM   #19
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[quote=emilynghiem;1314012]Dear Wallis:
1. Jesus as Justice is an old idea. The idea of Jesus being the Word or Laws of God that were always with God in heaven before they became incarnated on earth. So this means Justice, the authority of God over all laws and authorities, visible or invisible, in heaven or on earth. That is as old as the Word.

Please show me where "Jesus as Justice" is a theological notion. Never heard this. The idea that Jesus will come as a Judge, however, is preponderant. However, this idea does not jive with his philosophy and teachings. It is Paul and his Hellenic ideas that have perverted the original and simple message.


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Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
2. This does not contradict your notion that God must be all inclusive love and cannot be about judging and condemnation, as that would not be justice with mercy which is the message in the Bible. The Bible clearly states that we must forgive others as we ask to be forgiven. That is justice with mercy and that is what Christ Jesus stands for and fulfills. This is in the Bible and is nothing new.

Take out the word "justice." You are confusing people with "justice."

There is no justice in turning the other cheek. This is simply following a personal philosophy of not returning violence for violence. Nor expecting recompense either.


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Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
Jesus added a third Commandment in John 13:34 that we should love one another as Jesus loves us, which joins the love of God and love of man as one.

So we are to love one another with unconditional love and forgiveness, with justice and mercy both, as God's love and justice are inclusive of all humanity; and not love with man's conditional system of justice that seeks to reward whom we favor and punishes those we are against. We are to rise above that selfish retributive type of justice and live by Christ Jesus Restorative Justice.

Justice and Mercy are already in the Bible as Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

"The word "justice" is on everyone's lips nowadays, and may signify almost anything. We hear the cry 'Peace and Justice!' from folk who would destroy existing societies with fire and sword. Other folk fancy that perfect justice might readily be obtained by certain financial rearrangements -- as if anything in this world ever could be perfected. One thinks of the observation of William James: 'So long as one poor cockroach suffers the pangs of unrequited love, this world will not be a moral world.' At the end of the twentieth century, the liberal mentality demands justice for roaches, too.

"All confusion about the meaning of the word "justice" notwithstanding, the latest edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica contains no article under the heading 'Justice.' Yet there is a succinct article about justices of the peace, of whose number I once was one, before the state of Michigan swept away that high office. My lecture today may be regarded as the attempt of a fool, rushing in where the angelic Britannica fears to tread. Yet possibly the nature of justice may be apprehended by a mere quondam justice of the peace: for the fundamental purpose of law is to keep the peace. 'Justice is the ligament which holds civilized beings and civilized nations together,' said Daniel Webster at the funeral of Justice Joseph Story, in 1845; and so say I today.

"Conspicuous among such venerable words, in our era often abused and misrepresented, is this necessary word justice. Today I am attempting to purify the dialect of the tribe -- to borrow another phrase from my old friend Eliot, who endeavored lifelong to rescue words from the clutch of the vulgarizer or of the ideologue.

"Permit me first to offer preliminary descriptions or definitions of this word justice. Jeremy Taylor, in the middle of the seventeenth century, wrote that there exist two kinds of justice. The one is commutative justice, or reciprocal justice, expressed in Scripture thus: 'Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, even so do to them.' In Taylor's words, 'This is the measure... of that justice which supposes exchange of things profitable for things profitable, that as I supply your need, you may supply mine; as I do a benefit to you, I may receive one by you.... '

"The other kind is distributive justice, expressed in this passage from Romans: 'Render to all their dues; tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor; owe no man anything but to love one another.' Upon this Taylor comments, 'This justice is distinguished from the first, because the obligation depends not upon contract or express bargain, but passes upon us by some command of God, or of our superior, by nature or by grace, by piety or religion, by trust or by office, according to that commandment, "As every man hath received the gift, so let him minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God."'

"But perhaps, ladies and gentlemen, I proceed too fast; I shall have more to say a little later about the Christian concept of justice. Just now a little about the classical idea of justice. The classical definition, which comes to us through Plato, Aristotle, Saint Ambrose, and Saint Augustine of Hippo, is expressed in a single phrase: suum cuique, or 'to each his own.' As this is put in Justinian's Corpus Juris Civilis, 'Justice is a habit whereby a man renders to each one his due with constant and perpetual will.' Aristotle instructs us that the prevalence of injustice makes clear the meaning of justice. Also Aristotle remarks that it is unjust to treat unequal things equally -- a principle to which I shall return in my later lectures. Of the virtue called justice, Saint Augustine declares, 'Justice is that ordering of the soul by virtue of which it comes to pass that we are no man's servant, but servants of God alone.'


You can read the rest here: http://www.heritage.org/research/lec...ing-of-justice

Now, if you want to quote 20 Bible verses on Justice, follow this link:

http://voices.yahoo.com/20-bible-ver...e-3984616.html

What are we talking about here?

Basically, it is an attempt to legislate love and kindness and mercy. All because of that one word: "justice."

As we can see from the previous quote, the very word "justice" means different things to a lot of people, and one of the first "visions" that pop into people's heads includes courts, judges, and compensation for injuries (both real and imagined).

Loving people for real does not need these emotionally charged words like "justice." Just get down and love people. Let's stop worrying about whether or not we loved enough or did it right. Love someone and drop it; move on.

And don't expect a pat on the back, either.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:09 PM   #20
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Please show me where "Jesus as Justice" is a theological notion. Never heard this. The idea that Jesus will come as a Judge, however, is preponderant. However, this idea does not jive with his philosophy and teachings. It is Paul and his Hellenic ideas that have perverted the original and simple message.
OK Wallis let's break this down.

The Bible does refer to Jesus with a double-edged sword.
So there ARE two sides of this interpretation of Jesus as giving the CHOICE
of facing
1. JUDGEMENT or the retributive justice approach IF you choose this route
2. Justice with Mercy or the way of loving correction and forgiveness
so we CAN love all people as our neighbors as God calls us to


I already answered below, equating "Word of God" with "Law of God"
where Jesus embodies this law, so that equates to divine justice of God.
[Col 1:16 states that the Lord has dominion over all authorities visible or invisible]

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Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
Dear Wallis:
1. Jesus as Justice is an old idea. The idea of Jesus being the Word or Laws of God that were always with God in heaven before they became incarnated on earth. So this means Justice, the authority of God over all laws and authorities, visible or invisible, in heaven or on earth. That is as old as the Word.
Clearly, there ARE two sides of justice, and you are right that
if you do not specify "justice with mercy" then people ASSUME
you mean the judgmental type of justice or judgment and punishment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallis
Take out the word "justice." You are confusing people with "justice."
As for "turning the other cheek" the best explanation I heard is NOT to tolerate being abused, but to insist on being rebuked as an equal citizen not a slave!
The backhanded slap with someone's left hand meant they were unclean as a noncitizen and a slave; so demanding to be redressed as an equal by using the right hand meant to recognize the person as a citizen.

http://robbieforeman.cc/2010/05/06/w...e-other-cheek/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallis
There is no justice in turning the other cheek. This is simply following a personal philosophy of not returning violence for violence. Nor expecting recompense either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallis
What are we talking about here?

Basically, it is an attempt to legislate love and kindness and mercy. All because of that one word: "justice."

As we can see from the previous quote, the very word "justice" means different things to a lot of people, and one of the first "visions" that pop into people's heads includes courts, judges, and compensation for injuries (both real and imagined).

Loving people for real does not need these emotionally charged words like "justice." Just get down and love people. Let's stop worrying about whether or not we loved enough or did it right. Love someone and drop it; move on.

And don't expect a pat on the back, either.
We are talking about two things, or three:
Difference between
1. Justice as retributive, judgment and punishment
2. Forgiving our neighbors as we ask forgiveness,
correcting others as we agree to correct ourselves,
or Restorative Justice that renews good faith relations
3. Divine Justice that you get the justice you give, above:
if you live by #1 you get that in return, you reap what you sow
if you live by #2 you receive grace in return, you are forgiven
more than you can pay back, so you pay it forward and help the
next person who pays it forward, etc. so the cycle of sin/suffering is broken

Wallis, regarding "legislating justice" that is legalistic under #1.
You and I BOTH know that nobody can legislate morality!
We both AGREE that preaching Jesus/Christianity this way contradicts and wreaks havoc!
We KNOW people can only LEARN by experience that you get what you give in life!
That is LEARNED by free will and reason and cannot be forced by law!

So that is why we not only are called to live and love as God/Jesus
to teach and share this by example, but also what Christianity teaches
is to receive and embody the actual love of God through Jesus to
LIVE in our hearts where we embrace the laws by conscience.

NOT to impose judgment on others as in #1 that you and I both
reject with disdain because it perpetuates the problems.

But to live with the laws in our being so that this love and message
of God in the Bible is fully incarnated and manifested on earth
in all our relations and not just preached about but practiced and shared.

Now Wallis are we on the same page about justice?
Is it clear I agree with you that Jesus is not supposed to be about #1
the retributive legalistic type! (note: that type is reserved for people who
live that way and GET that type of judgment back on them, in reaction to them preaching that way as condemnation; while the people who live by the spiritual laws of love receive the higher spiritual rewards on that level of spiritual justice where you are forgiven by first forgiving others.)

no one legislates these laws, Wallis, they are natural given by God.
you get the type of justice you live by: either the legalistic type that
projects judgment and punishment and creates cycles of abuse/war
OR the loving peace and justice with mercy where answering grievances
and trespasses with loving corrections heals past wrongs and allows
prevention, correction and restitution to restore faith in justice and law.

Last edited by emilynghiem; 02-12-2013 at 06:15 PM.
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