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Old 02-15-2013, 11:46 AM   #271
emilynghiem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cusco View Post
Being that "GOD" is a TITLE and not a name maybe you and Sapphire can put a name to this so called "GOD" so we know of whom you are refering too ...lets start their instead
Hi Cusco: what i mean is what values, concepts or principles are ASSOCIATED with God such as
God's will = meaning good will, greater good, public good, common good
whatever is the ideal good or highest good for ALL people not just one group
God's truth = universal truth, again by definition all encompassing so it is true for all people and groups
God's laws = universal laws, the underlying concepts that by definition must apply to all humanity, though these can be expressed locally in diverse ways through natural/secular/civil law or through religious/sacred/scriptural laws
God's wisdom
God's love
God's creation or all the universe
God as source of life

Which of these concepts do you include in your system of thought or
perspective if any?

Do you believe in basing your words/actions/relations on Truth and Justice? Love or equal respect for others? How would you describe your principles or values in life in your own terms as a nontheist?
Can we start there? Thanks Cusco!
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Old 02-15-2013, 12:06 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by evileye View Post
Hey Cusco I like your new pic.

They can not name their "God", it would require understanding what their "God" is.
Hi Evil Eye: Thank you and Cusco for replying with straightforward direction and focus. That is one thing I love about the gift of objectivity in nontheistic thinkers like you! My friend Ray whom I hope you can meet online someday is very helpful with this, and i found out one of my college friends who used to study as a Christian is now nontheist studying Buddhism so he adds that objective perspective as well. This helps a lot!!

For us to come up with a consensus on what God means would be like adding up the 99 names of God and saying God is all those things COMBINED. plus each person may have different aspects, variations or equivalents of what those same things mean to them (in concept, such as truth or justice, whether or not this is associated with God or Jesus or anything divine or spiritual at all, the point is to align the concepts).

We could generalize the MAIN concepts or patterns that people follow in assigning principles or concepts in life. In the reply to Cusco below, I listed some of the main ones I run across most commonly in working with people of diverse backgrounds and approaches to life.

This isn't perfect but at least it is a close representation of what we are referring to when we talk about God.

The Lutheran Pastor at the church near my university campus
used "LIFE" as a close substitute for God.

Some people are more concerned with "LOVE"
and others "TRUTH." In Buddhism the two main
principles are WISDOM and COMPASSION for all beings in life.

So it really depends on each person.

And the sum of all the parts, the collective is the
closest we can represent of the full meaning of God as universal to all humanity
which would stlll surpass our limited human perceptions
and ability to express that in words on a finite scale.

Again this is why I say it is like variables in math
and at least showing patterns the variables follow.
But the values assigned to the variables can be infinite
in variation. We may show the patterns are consistent, but not every single
application which would be infinite in possibility.

Thanks again EE

P.S. from my experience, I find people can see where there is agreement on things like love and truth, but when it comes to justice and trying to reconcile views with others, that is where the proof or reconciliation process falls apart if people can't forgive each other by association with groups or ideas they don't agree to forgive. So that is where I find it necessary to prove a pre-lemma of the factor of forgiveness and the effect it has on whether people can reconcile across different viewpoints. I have been working with people one-on-one where they see this "forgiveness" factor from personal experience; but for formal proof it could be measured statistically to show that people who report forgiveness can reconcile their differences in systems of thought while people who report division and unforgiveness also report not being able to align their systems along common principles. So this could be shown either personally to people, or document through statistics to show the correlation between forgiveness and reconciliation, and unforgiveness with religious or political division that cannot be reconciled between those people.

I believe that by showing the forgiveness needs to be between both people, this might encourage people to try to be more forgiving to see the difference it makes in being about to share corrections and missing information back and forth that is otherwise blocked.

For Christians who believe that only forgiveness by receiving Christ directly is going to be enough,
then this pattern should also show up in the statistics, where people who have received Jesus in the past
may end up being the key facilitators, while those who practice forgiveness through other means are
able to reconcile 'in relation' or 'in connection' with that. This could also be so.

Either way I am more interested in promoting the forgiveness if this helps to improve communications
and relations, where more people can work together and combine efforts and resources in practical solutions
instead of being divided by politics and religion and wasting resources in conflict that could be helping people!

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Old 02-15-2013, 12:57 PM   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
Hi Cusco: what i mean is what values, concepts or principles are ASSOCIATED with God such as
God's will = meaning good will, greater good, public good, common good
whatever is the ideal good or highest good for ALL people not just one group
God's truth = universal truth, again by definition all encompassing so it is true for all people and groups
God's laws = universal laws, the underlying concepts that by definition must apply to all humanity, though these can be expressed locally in diverse ways through natural/secular/civil law or through religious/sacred/scriptural laws
God's wisdom
God's love
God's creation or all the universe
God as source of life

Which of these concepts do you include in your system of thought or
perspective if any?

Do you believe in basing your words/actions/relations on Truth and Justice? Love or equal respect for others? How would you describe your principles or values in life in your own terms as a nontheist?
Can we start there? Thanks Cusco!
That does not answer my question to you:
Lets put it like this there are 33,000 different christian denominations thats 33,000 different God's and not all of them share the same
attributes that you listed other wise there would only be ONE religion so I will ask you again what is the name of your GOD what make him so special that you ignore the church across the street from your church?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT-mrvrPJIs
2;10 in to this vid is my point but by all mean watch the whole thing

by the way you do not need religion, fath, beliefs, to have or put morals in to use I do just fine thnk you
__________________
"Philosopher Xenophenes, who said, ................."If cattle and lions and horses had hands and could paint... horses would depict their
gods as horses, .....and cattle would depict their gods as cattle, ........and lions would depict their gods as lions."........ "Our gods," he
concludes, "reflect our prejudices and our environments... gods are a delusion rather than a reality. We make them in our own image."."
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Old 02-15-2013, 01:26 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Cusco View Post
That does not answer my question to you:
[1.] Lets put it like this there are 33,000 different christian denominations thats 33,000 different God's and not all of them share the same
attributes that you listed other wise there would only be ONE religion so I will ask you again what is the name of your GOD what make him so special that you ignore the church across the street from your church?

[3.]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT-mrvrPJIs
2;10 in to this vid is my point but by all mean watch the whole thing

[2.]by the way you do not need religion, fath, beliefs, to have or put morals in to use I do just fine thnk you
2. I agree that you do not need a "religion" to have morals.
In fact, what this is attempting to show is that people NATURALLY have morals that align with the terms meant in religions.

1. As for the billions of people and combinations, what I am offering to set up is just starting with SPECIFIC cases focusing on each person's views like you and me, showing a pattern of alignment, and then from there collectively it can be shown that people fall under 2 or 3 major patterns (like the religious terms of God vs. secular concepts) and then show that all the other variations then stem from those.

That is why I am asking what is YOUR particular way of summarizing your values in life?
For example my secular humanist friend TOM said his philosophy is
respect for TRUTH
respect for FREEDOM
respect for ENVIRONMENT/PEOPLE IN SOCIETY
so this can be shown to align with the same 3-level pattern
in major religions and not be against them.

So for our purposes here, just showing if your NATURAL system of right and wrong, morals ethics or life principles ALIGNS with one or more of the key patterns, that shows this is natural and not something that needs to be imposed by religion, if anything, it shows religions attempt to REFLECT what is naturally occurring by our human nature. and we can simply TRANSLATE between one person's views and any other religion or law which also aligns with the same 3-level pattern since human nature is universal and the differences in expression are more external.

I think it would verify what you already believe and also show this can be reconciled with religion, with the key factor being forgiveness of the people, not any fault of the beliefs themselves which I hope to show CAN be reconciled as long as people forgive each other our differences.

Thanks Cusco!

P.S. if the only nontheists willing to reach out and reconcile with theists are the ones with Christian backgrounds before they focused on nontheistic approaches, that would verify what Christians traditionally teach that faith in Jesus is necessary.

If people who don't have Christianity in their backgrounds can still reconcile to the same degree as people who do, that shows it is the DEGREE of forgiveness that is the key regardless of religious affiliation or not.

So I am interested to see if people can be just as forgiving on the unconditional level needed for reconciliation between diverse groups, regardless of background or belief.

3. taking notes on the speakers points in the video, thanks! will reply point by point in separate msg
how there is an interpretation of christian message that resolves each conflict

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Old 02-15-2013, 01:56 PM   #275
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[3]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cusco View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT-mrvrPJIs
2;10 in to this vid is my point but by all mean watch the whole thing
Hi Cusco thanks again for posting this video. I noted at least 10 points the speaker stated. I can post my answers below, but please note, this does not change the fact that you and he are nontheists and do not see the world in Biblical terms as a Christian. The main thing I can do here is point out (a) how to interpret the Bible where it does NOT cause these conflicts and (b) use this to show the need to forgive the divisive conflicting interpretations of the Bible, let go of those, and look at the bigger message that would include atheists nontheists and other secular Gentiles in the process of peace or salvation for all humanity, the key factor being FORGIVENESS and not so much what religion or nontheistic language we use to express our truths.

If you can live with this interpretation of the Bible, I can offer to run for Pope and push for an official interpretation that includes all people instead of leaving any group out. the key factor to making peace or "establishing the kingdom of God" is FORGIVENESS, otherwise people will cling to their political and religious differences to fault each other and never get there!
==============================
Here are the 10 points i noted from this video:
1. retributive god in the OT is not justifiable morally
2. odds of being right by dividing religions
3. using religion as a "condition" to get to heaven
4. not a matter of God or Unicorns etc. "being in Bible" that makes
true or not but what they mean that makes them true or false
5. how could God not forgive sins without killing himself as Jesus first
6. mystical things against natural science vs what is true should be naturally proven
(note: Bible does not have to be literal to represent universal true message)
7. if God so omnipotent could be clear
8. does not take faith to see proof
(note: 7 and 8 conflicts confusion caused by unforgiveness)
9. how can God make a choice of torture by hell based on religion
(note: not a matter of religion but forgiveness or unforgiveness that causes suffering/hell)
10. how can God show no mercy put such conditions
even a regular person would rescue someone from hell
(note: this is why people do try to help each other not go there)

Hey Cus: I'm at my third job today and typing in between errands.
So if I get interrupted I'm sorry, will try to keep replies short,
just make points to show these conflicts can be resolved.
and noting it still does not change the ways that Christians will believe
as they do and Gentiles will also remain secular and not follow the Bible, but the
conflicts don't need to be left unresolved between these different paths, that's all.
These can be reconciled and people can stay with their current beliefs but just forgive their differences.

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Old 02-15-2013, 02:38 PM   #276
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I will try to hit points 1-5 in one message.
NOTE 1: The point of this is to show there are ways to interpret the Bible consistent with the Christian msg WITHOUT running into these conflicts
2. it is NOT to convert Christians to Gentiles or Gentiles to Christians; I expect people to stay with their natural language, as I would not expect people who become bilingual in Spanish/English to drop their native language and convert to the other! this is just to help with reconciliation so people can forgive and make peace, especially given they will more likely remain with their current faith or lack of affiliation and not change that
3. Also I am not just picking on Christianity as needed to correct these teachings, the same process is equally needed with Constitutional laws and govt that are also in conflict. the rampant corruption and abuse that contradicts constitutional laws and principles does not mean to throw out govt altogether, but to reform and correct it based on the laws the state is supposed to be enforcing; same with Christianity and the church laws.
Correction is needed, with both church and state, not rejection and abolition which doesn't correct the problems.

==============================
5 of the 10 points i noted from this video:
1. retributive god in the OT is not justifiable morally
2. odds of being right by dividing religions
3. using religion as a "condition" to get to heaven
4. not a matter of God or Unicorns etc. "being in Bible" that makes
true or not but what they mean that makes them true or false
5. how could God not forgive sins without killing himself as Jesus first
==================
==================
1. This can be resolved, in agreement with the atheists who do not believe it is right true or good to teach or believe in any God that is wrathful and pushes retribution and punishment if God is supposed to be loving,
by teaching that the OT is about the corruption of the laws, by manipulating them by the letter of the law, out of greed for power and control, and "retributive justice". Living by this type of relationship with God is indeed destructive and results in genocidal wars and endless suffering. It is in the Bible more as a warning about human history, and why we don't want to live under fear of judgment or punishment. This interpretation is consistent with secular moralists who believe in restorative justice and not retributive justice which invokes war and suffering.
The OT did not have the forgiving relationship with God as in the NT, so both are used to teach the difference.

2. This can be resolved by teaching that for Jesus to be divine authority for all humanity all authorities and laws, then the spirit of God's universal laws or Justice which Jesus embodies and represents on our human level
FULFILLS all the different tribes and laws of nations. So ALL humanity and ALL tribes can be included in salvation wihch is more consistent with an all encompassing all loving God. You do NOT judge people by religion as the speaker does, based on external affiliation. People of ALL tribes who receive the spirit of forgiveness and the unifying truth and message of Christ are saved from suffering or spiritual hell - by way of grace and forgiveness not by affiliation. The message of Christ and Christianity is one, and is fulfilled in Christ Jesus alone, but this does NOT have to be interpreted to mean only Christians are saved and Gentiles or others are not. All people can receive the forgiveness, message and healing of Christ Jesus yet remain in their respective tribes. The key factor is the divine forgiveness which collectively for all humanity is symbolized in the sacrifice and redemption of Christ Jesus.

3. on that note, people using affiliation with religion as a "condition" to get into heaven is indeed contrary to the true Christian message. So the Atheist speaker is correct in pointing out this is immoral to teach that it depends on one picking the right affiliation and everyone else is doomed to hell. The key to heaven is forgiveness, and it is when people are most challenged and cannot fully forgive by their own minds and will that the key is asking HELP with forgiveness from God on a higher level than our own human free will. Some forgiveness we can will on our own, but what is holding back humanity from the highest levels of peace and being saved from suffering is the collective ability to forgive all things and all people where we fall short. Whatever you call the collective forgiveness of all things which we as humans otherwise hold on to and project or pass forward in repeated cycles of retribution and victimhood, that is what Christianity means by recognizing Jesus as the central focus and agreeing to let go and not carry all the sins and wrongs of the world on our shoulders as a grudge against others.
Whatever "step" you call this agreement to forgive or to ask help to forgive, that is the only 'condition' if you want to call it that. But it is a naturally occurring "condition" because of how our free will is designed; you cannot force someone to forgive or it is not genuine so it will not work to alleviate the suffering caused by unforgiveness. only by free will does forgiveness work, so it HAS to be freely chosen and even GOD cannot force it on us as it goes against our nature. God cannot will a rock to become a butterfly or a butterfly to become an elephant; it goes against the laws of nature. So with forgiveness this is the step humans have to freely choose and ask for.
Prayer is one way that people express consent in asking for things to be forgiven and corrected.
It is just a step, it is not something to judge someone by like a condition with a social value attached.
It is part of the natural spiritual process, and forgiveness happens to be necessary for healing and corrections to follow afterward, since unforgiveness blocks the mind and energy from working toward resolving issues.

4. I agree with the speaker that it makes no sense that just because something is in the Bible makes it true, where he uses God and unicorns. What matters is what is MEANT by God that either makes it false or true, makes it true for some people but not others, or makes it universally true. The interpretation of the Bible that makes sense to me as universal is acknowledging that Jews Muslims and Christians are governed under Scriptural laws, while Gentiles such as Buddhists, secular humanists, Constitutionalists are governed by natural laws as expressed in civil laws and even social science and psychology. And that Jesus governing both folds of the one flock still represents universal justice for people under EITHER the church laws and sacred scripture OR the state laws under civil laws as the principles written in the Constitution. The Constitutional and natural laws are not written in the Bible, but they are still true. Where these are practiced consistently, so that people not under the law by conscience or nature do the things contained in the law, they are still governed by the universal spirit of Truth and Justice which God and Jesus represent under scriptural laws. The spirit of truth is still one, by definition for laws to be universal, but the expressions may be local and relative to the people's contexts and social affiliations.
It is more the SPIRIT of how people live and act in relations with each other that reveals if this is consistent with following God's laws through Christ, and not something that can necessarily be judged by affiliation; where affiliation or language of the law matters is that people are consistent with their own laws and language. if they contradict themselves, that causes a problem no matter what affiliation or law they claim to be under; if they are consistent with their own standards, they should be able to reconcile with people of any other system. Again, this can be shown by experience or by formal study that the FORGIVENESS factor is the key to the ability to reconcile.

5. RE: if God is all powerful and forgiving why did Jesus have to be killed/sacrifice for sins to be redeemed

God already forgives and has mercy, that is not the issue.
What prevents that from being realized on earth is where
people cannot understand and cannot FORGIVE so the suffering goes in circles.
Again, by the way human nature and free will work, the forgiveness
that allows the healing and peace, and vicious cycles of oppression and abuse
from the past to break, requires us to freely choose NOT for this to be "imposed by
God as all-powerful"
Forcing people's minds like computers to always get the right answers automatically
does NOT allow for humans to LEARN the processes by trial/error/experience.

Where our free will and reason is not always enough to overcome past issues:
our human minds, perception and will are limited by our linear understanding,
where we cannot always see solutions in the future
especially when our minds or relations with others are blocked with unforgiveness and emotions from past problems. So if we cannot see any point or hope for corrections,
then we don't forgive, then we stay stuck not being able to work together,
and then we CAN'T find and make corrections.
So instead of trying to forgive and correct things, we
close this off and cut off relations with blame or even
retribution which just makes the problems worse. So this is where the vicious cycle of
social suffering, relationships abuse, and political oppression blocks people's faith in justice
ever being achieved; and if you have no faith in justice, then how can you take steps to build toward it.

Where the leap of faith comes in, is choosing to forgive
in spite of all the wrongs of the past. There is no reason to forgive,
unless you understand that it will help with correcting the problems.
And when problems are so stacked up over time, that even where people
know they need to forgive but CAN'T because of the suffering they feel,
that is where it may take "divine grace" in order to forgive, let go or be healed
from a higher level than just human free will and conscious choice to change.

If it helps, I will try to describe this process using a real life analogy, and see if that gives at least a rough idea of
how the spiritual process might work where it requires this extreme step of divine sacrifice.
The analogy I use is a computer drive or network that is crippled by viruses.
In extreme cases the anti-virus program has to be downloaded first on the main drive,
or on all the units, and then the system(s) must also be shut down and rebooted.
So this is like killing the system and restarting it WITH the new program embedded inside it.
This allows the program to infiltrate all the units or all the network, and all files affected,
to clean out the problems jamming the system.

So I compare this with injecting Divine Forgiveness and Justice from a higher level
into the realm of human existence and consciousness on earth, in order to break through
the vicious cycle of retribution from past suffering oppression poverty and war (whether you call this sins or karma abuses or social conditions past down from one generation to the next) and to bring healing to people relationships and institutions so that the problems can be corrected prevented and solved in the future.

The idea of Jesus being without sin means not carrying a past debt for which any sacrifice is owed,
so anything sacrificed is paid FORWARD not backward. this is what forgiveness does to change the
human condition, by forgiving the past and correcting the present and preventing issues from repeating in the future. Individually all people, like the local units on a network, go through our own process of recovery from past setbacks or injustice to be better in the future; and collectively if you consider all cultures all generations all nations and all people combined into one, that collective process of recovery and growth to spiritual maturity is what the Bible symbolizes in moving from the OT history of war destruction and suffering to the NT message of lasting peace and justice in the future, where the sacrifice of Christ is the divine breaking point in the vicious cycle where the patterns of the past end, by repentance forgiveness and letting go, and there is new life or rebirth in a new world of harmony between people as neighbors living in the spirit of charity and truth that sets humanity free from past strife (or in Buddhism, by Wisdom and Compassion that overcomes unnecessary suffering).

Again, all tribes all people's experiences personally, culturally and collectively as humanity
will go through these stages of recovery from setbacks or injustices to reach full maturity and peace.
What Jesus and the Holy Spirit represent is the collective process of achieving lasting Peace and Justice for all humanity. So those who recognize this, that the individual process is connected with the global process for all humanity, tend to feel more joy and peace and spiritual support; while those who feel isolated or in conflict or competition with other people or groups (largely due to unforgiveness and fear that separates people from each other in our minds, especially by groups) tend to suffer from conflicts and hostile relationships that are cut off.
So this is what it means for the unforgiveness to cause spiritual suffering or "hell" on various levels, from the individual to the collective level of suffering of all humanity combined.

From this perspective, it is a natural consequence of not fully forgiving and letting go of past issues and emotions/perceptions attached that then cause people's relations and lives to repeat negative patterns
of fear and suffering instead of being free of the past to enjoy life in peace.

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Old 02-15-2013, 04:44 PM   #277
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OK i think those 5 were harder.
I will try to answer 6-10 but most of the same
points may already be covered

Quote:
Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
[3]
6. mystical things against natural science vs what is true should be naturally proven
(note: Bible does not have to be literal to represent universal true message)
7. if God so omnipotent could be clear
8. does not take faith to see proof
(note: 7 and 8 conflicts confusion caused by unforgiveness)
9. how can God make a choice of torture by hell based on religion
(note: not a matter of religion but forgiveness or unforgiveness that causes suffering/hell)
10. how can God show no mercy put such conditions
even a regular person would rescue someone from hell
(note: this is why people do try to help each other not go there)
6. Belief in Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice and the power of Forgiveness to transform lives and relations to make them new does NOT require ANY belief in anything "mystical" unless you call it a miracle that people choose to forgive after what they have suffered. The positive effects of forgiveness HAVE been studied through social science and medicine, and more studies can be done in the deeper healing methods used by a combination of Buddhist meditation and Christian healing prayer etc. Even AA and the counseling based on stages of grief and overcoming dependency follow
the same patterns of forgiveness in order to make changes or corrections.

Especially if you are Gentile and under natural laws, the Bible is not necessarily the laws that you respond to, but explanations and proof of the same universal concepts using science, real life experience or even social/medical studies can be used to reach the same understanding
and appreciation of what the spiritual message and process for humanity
means that the Bible represents. It does not have to be literal to be true.

7. If God is so omnipotent why not make the message clear
Clarity is relative depends on the person's path to understanding.
The process of understanding, again, is also clouded by conflicting perceptions
and any emotions such as anger fear or unforgiveness attached.
Part of the process of reaching an understanding is to overcome
all these in stages. Again, if people's minds were like computers
that didn't have to think but automatically spit out the right answers,
there would not be the free will and reason to learn by experience
which is part of human nature and life.

Also, if one person or group had all the right answers, then that
person or group would become deified or held higher than others.
So in order for people to be equal, it makes sense that each
person or group has SOME positive contributions as well as
equal FLAWS that other people/groups help to check and balance or correct.

The believers under scriptural laws have as many faults with how things
are interpreted, applied, taken out of context or taken to extremes to cause problems,
where the secular and civil laws provide correction or balance,
and vice versa.

So again it is more important to follow the SPIRIT of the laws,
where by Restorative Justice corrections are made by agreement
by mutual forgiveness, and people are reconciled in their relations
even after a wrong or injustice occurs, so good faith is restored.

In the meantime yes there will be differences, conflicts and confusion
because people have different ways of seeing and saying things.

Again, for all the truth to be captured, it does take all these different
perspectives to study parts of how the world works, in order to put
all that knowledge together. So with the wide diversity of course
there is going to be confusion while people are learning how to
assimilate all the information from different sources and perspectives.

The analogy I would make here is like an orchestra,
where all the religions are like different sections of instruments.
None of their music is the same, some are in different keys.
So if they try to compare music or play out of turn or out of tune,
it is mass chaos! that does not mean that there is not an order
to how the orchestra should play, and that it is bad to have that
much potential for cacophony with all those different instruments.
The beauty of the symphony that comes together when all the
sections and instruments play their parts in harmony
EXCEEDS the horrible noise when they are playing separately
at the same time and it sounds like a bunch of mess.

8. Why should it take faith to see proof, why can't it be
seeing the natural proof first in order to believe.

yes and no, with things like proving spiritual healing works consistently
this can be demonstrated first to the satisfaction or standards of the
questioner before they are expected to believe.
But before that step there has to be faith in the scientific method
to work, and the person has to forgive enough to be willing to
look at the proof. Some people aren't. Some fundamental
atheists and fundamental Christians scoff at this proof
and cut it down before even trying it. So it does take
at least that amount of faith or forgiveness to even set up
and conduct a scientific proof.

Ironically to prove that forgiveness is a factor in the proof
and reconciliation process is a self-defining problem and solution.
If people refuse to forgive, and because of that won't participate
in the proof or steps of reconciliation then they stay stuck so they
keep proving that reconciliation is not possible.
If they forgive enough to try to reconcile and succeed
then they have already proven that in itself by practicing it
and demonstrating by experience.

That is why I offer to approach both at the same time,
so if people need to see the results first before they
forgive they can witness other people trying it before they try it;
and if they need to forgive first before they can
see how the results work out, we can study that too.

I believe it is interconnected that the
reconciliation and the forgiveness feed off each other,
where the more we forgive the more we can
understand, and the more we can understand
the more we can forgive.

9. I agree that it makes no sense for God to have created man with free will that is falliable and then punish man for failing if man's nature is imperfect.
The point of the OT is not punishment per se but for teaching the consequences
of taking on such an attitude, that retribution in terms of judgment and punishment
KILLS relationships and destroys humanity.
The whole point is to teach by experience why we DON'T want to choose that path.

The proper use of military force is to DETER aggression so we DON't have to go to war.
We have to have that choice in order to compel parties to take steps to avoid war.

The proper use of the death penalty is to compel offenders to
cooperate fully with authorities to avoid harsher punishment.

For hell to have a universal meaning across all cultures,
interpreting it as spiritual suffering would satisfy all definitions and terms.

So suffering is a natural consequence of not forgiving
and instead projecting negative energy and emotions
onto other situations and people.

You could say that God seems cruel for giving people a conscience
that could hold on to such negativity and not be able to forgive.
Or in the case of mental and criminal sickness not to be able to control
obsessive addictions to abusing and torturing other people.

But in the larger context of even these worst ills in humanity
being overcome by spiritual healing and forgiveness to get rid of the
negative energies causing them, in comparison the peace and joy
and freedom from these ills FAR outweighs the worst suffering
and sickness. Unless you have a sense of the entire spectrum,
of course it seems cruel and unjust.

You would have to know the other extremes
to see how there is justice, and the good is greater than the bad.

Again what I hope to establish with these studies in forgiveness
and reconciliation is by first forgiving these negative concepts
and perceptions, then the mind can be opened to seeing the
bigger picture and understand how there can be justice
with all the hellish suffering going on.

(For local proof by experience and repeat case studies,
interviews can be taken comparing the grief and healing process
of families of murder victims who had prayer support to forgive
vs. those who did not receive apologies or support to forgive
and compare reports of those who knew they would normally
have felt a worse nightmare of trauma and grief but the
prayers of forgiveness helped to free their minds of worse suffering)

10. how can God have less mercy than a regular human
who would surely save someone from burning hell without asking conditions of faith

I will use an analogy from my atheist friend Ray who works just fine
with Christians because of the alignment on Restorative Justice
that he works on with prison reform as his lifelong outreach and passion.

He said that with people, especially with addictions like alcohol abuse
he went through, you cannot help people until they ASK.
So not us, not God, nothing can help people who refuse to forgive
and let go and aren't ready to get unstuck from cycles of victimhood and oppression.

The first step is to ask for help and that is ENOUGH.
That is an act of the person's will not from outside control and
responsibility projected or injected externally onto that person.

As even Ray teaches as an atheist, the "free grace" is natural
and exists in life per se. There are not conditions on this except
we fail to use it!

And again you could say God is cruel for creating a human conscience
that can trap itself in addictions that are so hard to break from, and
i agree this is tremendously sad grievous or sometimes outrage inciting
that people on drugs not only hurt themselves but torture kill or traffick other people
because of their addictions. Incredibly cruel.

But when you know the experiences and reports of people who are
FREED from this, you could see that the spiritual freedom and peace
outweighs the horrible torment of being trapped with no way out.

So the point is NOT to force people by torturing or threatening them,
but to one day have such awareness and understanding
that we NO LONGER need to stoop to such torment before we learn
to avoid this and stay on the positive cycles of life not the negative.

Unfortunately, until we learn the cost of unforgiveness,
the negatives build up and up until there is extreme violence, war
and abuses. So had we been able to break sooner, then we would not see
these things. And the sooner the people who have learned to break out of
negative cycles of abuse addiction and sickness help others by sharing
and teaching how it works, more people can CHOOSE FREELY not by force.

Because it requires free will that is why it takes longer to overcome
these things than if it were forced on people like forced immunizations etc.

It does not work that way.
Forgiveness can never be forced, it requires free choice in order for the healing process to work.

My friend Ray can explain this using examples from AA and Buddhist meditation
that helped him break out and stay sober.

If you multiply that experience times all of humanity
that is the spiritual recovery process that is symbolized in the Bible
with Jesus representing the central breaking point to turn the tide
in favor of forgiveness and corrections so peace and justice are restored for all people.

The OT presents the patterns of retribution and spiritual hell
we still go through today when we refuse to forgive and just
keep lashing back and forth as if that solves any of the problems we protest

Breaking from the ways of the old and
forgiving and committing to making corrections
so these don't repeat is the new way of life in the NT
by the "spirit of the laws" truth and love or
Restorative Justice which Christ Jesus embodies

11. another point I think should be addressed is how
can there be universal salvation for Jesus to be the Messiah for all humanity
if some souls lived and died before he ever came to earth and spread his message

For this I have experienced events that influenced each other
even though the events occurred out of order.
Instead of cause and effect, it was more like these
were co-influenced, that neither one could occur without the other.

To explain collectively for all humanity
if you consider the spiritual level where thoughts and prayers connect
as universal across time and space,
then wherever the prayers for forgiveness occur, that
still allows the release of the negative energy to be
transformed into positive energy.

So it is possible for prayers in teh future to affect
the people or actions in the past, by looking at it
collectively and not necessarily linear as our perceptions are limited.

For people to be responsible for their own choices,
whatever level these souls make the choice to repent/forgive etc.
then the negative energy or actions are removed from them.
If they repeat because the actions of wrong/injustice were
not resolved in that lifetime, then the future generations
who feel the consequences then have the choice to
forgive and transform these into positive choices to break the cycle at that point.

So eventually all the evils are forgiven and transformed.
So all the souls i the process can still be saved
from suffering no matter where they occur in time.

The idea of Jesus being on a divine level
would be consistent with this transformation
process over all time and space affecting all humanity.
From God's viewpoint it is instant, for the overall plan to be ordered in design where it is as good as fulfilled already for God's will to be supreme; from our human experience and perception of time, the process is linear and we don't see the whole thing phsyically so that is where it is based on faith how we see it. Again, I believe we can show a pattern that the "degree of forgiveness" people have for each other despite differences in views affects/predicts/correlates with how much these views can be reconciled or not. This acknowledges the fact that the unproveable views are faith-based and focuses instead on the forgiveness factor in whether people agree or not.

Last edited by emilynghiem; 02-15-2013 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:52 PM   #278
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Here's the link to all the National Radio Interviews I've done trying to present this message for the Salvation of mankind.
http://www.legacywillandtrust.com/Na...aign-2012.html

From: Brian Ekl
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 2:09 PM
To: 'nathanjisbell@yahoo.com'
Cc: Rich Ghazarian; Alex Hinojosa
Subject: WNTN-AM Interview Confirmation: 3/8/13 @ 4 PM CT



Nathan –

1550 Today is WNTN's cornerstone program, a potpourri of issues, information & entertainment hosted by Paul Roberts. The program features interviews on a variety of topics such as health, nutrition, art, politics, lifestyles, food, diet, theatre, business and economy. The program airs Saturday mornings and is sure have an impact on almost everyone who tunes in. Enjoy the interview!

Rich



For Any Schedule Changes Please Contact Rich Ghazarian

727-443-7115 ext. 203 or Rich@newsandexperts.com



*** I N T E R V I E W I N F O ***



DATE: 2/14/2013 CC: Nathan Isbell



TO: Paul Roberts STATION: WNTN-AM 1550



FROM: Rich Ghazarian Fax: 617-969-1283



================================================== =============



TOPIC: Can Avoiding A Death Tax Save Our Economy?



GUEST NAME: Nathan Isbell



GUEST PHONE NUMBER: 251-xxx-xxxx

251-xxx-xxxx Cell #



RADIO STATION: WNTN-AM 1550



CITY, STATE: Boston, MA



STATION PHONE NUMBER: 617-969-1552 (Nathan Calls Station)



DATE OF INTERVIEW: Friday, March 8, 2013



TIME OF INTERVIEW: 4 PM CT/ 5 PM ET



SIMULCAST ON INTERNET: ( x) Yes ( ) No

Website Address: www.wntn.com



LENGTH OF INTERVIEW: 20 minutes - Taped



NAME OF HOST: Paul Roberts

_________________________

Rich Ghazarian



Please Refer Listener Inquiries to www.legacywillandtrust.com

Please email podcast/MP3 of the interview to Rich@newsandexperts.com





Brian Ekl
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Tel: 727-443-7115, Extension 226
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:30 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1162 View Post
TOPIC: Can Avoiding A Death Tax Save Our Economy?
I believe equal access and training in financial/property management
is necessary for a sustainable economy.

Also, equal commitment to follow laws and accept social/financial responsibility for one's cost to society, equal access and knowledge of legal education, conflict resolution and due process to reach a consensus.

And equal knowledge of and access to spiritual laws of the impact of forgiveness and spiritual healing on people's mental and physical health, social and professional relationships, and institutions in society.

For economic reforms to help all people of all classes in a sustainable way, I believe we would need to convert prisons and sweatshop factories into schools, health centers and campus housing to provide jobs, education and services in a financially viable way, through internships combining the education with the actual outreach to combine the costs of housing, facilities and services. So whatever money or labor is invested in the program is paid forward to train and serve more people to create similar community developments worldwide.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:58 AM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilynghiem View Post
So whatever money or labor is invested in the program is paid forward to train and serve more people to create similar community developments worldwide.
Would this money that is invested to disburse funds that are paid forward be considered a financial Legacy of sorts?
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“Makes a lot of sense." - Martin D. Weiss, Ph.d.
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