Bloodless Surgery: Compliments of Jehovah's Witnesses

[BibleStudy]

OH I forgot to mention.

For all those who are interested in learning more.
Try the watchtower.org site.
There's a 'medical' tab.
I haven't been on there beyond a surface glance, but I suppose you could get some pretty good info on there.
I think you can also do a search on there for articles. I've done it before on other subjects.

[Orion]

Hey Emmy,

I know you will understand that I have chopped out the portions of your post that I care not about. I do want to address the rest, though...so...

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

Dear Plad and Orion: After I met with some other people in the Christian and legal community, I am leaning toward a formal petition or public rebuke of JW using Bible Scripture, so that instead of a lawsuit in court, it is a demand for corrections to false teaching that I fear is killing people. This is very sad, and not something to be joking about as we do on this forum. So I will ask for help to stop the false teaching on the grounds that it is bearing false witness, against Scriptural laws, and is violating equal protections of civil rights by federal laws. And I am hoping that just the publicity raised by such a petition might correct the problem in itself.

The Constitution you champion gives them the right of Free Speech and also the Freedom of Religion. I don't see how you can legally or even ethically petition to stop them from expressing their idiotic beliefs in public. PGH can shed some light on this if he is still reading you and cares to respond.

IMO...In the case of denying medical treatment (transfusions) to themselves, it is their right to do so. If they die because of it, they are culling their own herd and I, for one, would not mourn. When they withhold established medical treatment from a child who cannot make the decision for itself, custody of the child should legally, by law, revert to the State and the required medical treatment administered immediately. If, knowing this outcome is imminent, the custodians fail to seek proper medical treatment and the child dies or is reduced to a comatose state with little hope of recovery, etc. The custodians should be stood in front of a firing squad and then clubbed to death. This seems to me to be a more Constitutional method of bringing about the "corrections" you seek.

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

I know you both know right from wrong, as righteous gentiles, so I know I can joke with you, too, and you know the difference for the most part.

You would have to search high and low to find anyone in agreement with you about either of us being "Righteous" and I don't know why you think we need a label such as "Gentile". Should we tattoo this label on our foreheads like the mark of Cain? "Gentile" is a word the Pious Jews used to differentiate themselves from all those lower on the food chain than themselves. Is that how you CLASSify Plad and myself? I speak for myself when I say I would rather you just considered me to be a Human Being, with all my faults, worthy of nothing, alone on my path. I'm pretty sure Plad is also a Human Being but he will defend himself on this if he wishes.

Thought you might need some cheering up.

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

In a way, I am glad for Anner and BSC to have shown me how serious this was. WS seems more like my bf family that is able to deal with differences rationally and work things out. But the "willful ignorance" shown by Anner and BSC seems downright dangerous, that the JW organization takes advantage of "undereducated" people who DON'T know civil or spiritual laws, and teach them to reject corrections that could save lives. So that is serious to me.

Too many things are serious to you. I'm glad to see you lighten up a little and jab us with your satire instead of rambling on endlessly about things only you will read. We got some good laughs from you this week. I'm also glad to see you get mad and speak your mind about things you find abhorrent.

Woofy is new to the Card Carrying JW game. She seems to know her Bible well and shows herself to be honest and true to her belief. IMO...Too much interaction with the movers and shakers of her religion will harden her heart into the same kind of Putz we are up against in this forum. I will be sorry to see that happen. I really like Woof. She knows how to push my buttons to mellow me out when I get out of control. Kind of like you...

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

I believe Anner is a great teacher, but needs to be given the right material to teach and not just parts out of context.

I have to say that the material she teaches is within her right to choose for herself. You being her "Genetic Equal" do not have the right to select the material for her. There is no TRUTH to either of your scenarios...IMO. The laws are already written that deal with those who lead others down a harmful path.

[woofshepherd]

Originally Posted by Cusco

BSC

You just read about one at the top of this thread.!!!!
and you would have heard of a second had my father not recievd a B.T.

so what are you talking about?

Cusco

My dad did NOT die because he didn't receive a BT, he died because he had pneumonia and respiratory distress syndrome and RA. We did finally find a doctor that gave him the alternative to BT and it worked, it was just that his RA had progressed to much causing his body to be unable to fight the pneumonia.... and we found out later that the surgeon that argued with me, only wanted to do a BT because he wanted to do a lung biopsy which he would of died of anyways, so basically he wasn't going to make it either way we went. I just know that I am doing my best so that I can see him again in paradise. I know he is not suffering anymore and he is like if he were asleep, that is what comforts me the most.

[emilynghiem]

I will TRY to keep this short. TRY!
1. by "righteous gentile" I mean that you are secular, not under religious Bible laws but you police ethics by natural laws. you seem to me to have the equivalent respect for "Truth" and "justice/conscience" as the Christians know as seeking God and Jesus. But you seek these values under natural laws not religious laws or concepts. Comprende?

2. A. For Christians laws, the "bearing of false witness" can be challenged.
B. For Constitutional laws, I would STILL hold that "equal protections" are being denied. I would have to legally prove that the JW as an "institution" are oppressing by manipulation and omission of factual medical knowledge. So that this denial of full knowledge and "informed consent" leads to the equivalent of "conspiring to violate civil rights" as a group that puts peer pressure on people and threatens to abridge their freedom of association as punishment. Orion, for these people to have "free speech" and "free exercise of religion" they must have knowledge of the difference between what they are teaching and what the CHristian and Civil laws say. Since they are DEPRIVED of that knowledge, that is not free. So they are being oppressed.

I can try to circulate a petition or email to gain support to PROVE the false teaching and oppression is going on. Like slavery, which was argued in the public sector before it was abolished, this argument may best be made directly among individuals and the public. If enough proof can be established then yes, I would make a legal case for compelling corrections so that people's equal protection is NOT being denied by abuses I see happening.

Originally Posted by Orion

Hey Emmy,

The Constitution you champion gives them the right of Free Speech and also the Freedom of Religion. I don't see how you can legally or even ethically petition to stop them from expressing their idiotic beliefs in public. PGH can shed some light on this if he is still reading you and cares to respond.


You would have to search high and low to find anyone in agreement with you about either of us being "Righteous" and I don't know why you think we need a label such as "Gentile". Should we tattoo this label on our foreheads like the mark of Cain? "Gentile" is a word the Pious Jews used to differentiate themselves from all those lower on the food chain than themselves. Is that how you CLASSify Plad and myself? I speak for myself when I say I would rather you just considered me to be a Human Being, with all my faults, worthy of nothing, alone on my path. I'm pretty sure Plad is also a Human Being but he will defend himself on this if he wishes.

Thought you might need some cheering up.

3. I call anyone who does not relate to the Christian/Biblical/Scriptural/divine laws
"gentile" or secular. My bf is gentile. I lean that way by my nature, but had to learn to speak the other language in order to police people by their own words. True Christians receive rebukes by the spirit and letter of the Bible they commit to live by so I use that language when addressing that audience. But I consider myself more Gentile/secular by nature, I relate to that way more.

As for being alone, we are all alone in our unique way and path. So that is true for any of us. We are one in that we are all human and we share much of the same compassion that is part of human nature. It is natural that we care for others, as we are connected on some level by nature of our social and/or spiritual constructs.

4. It looks like other groups have been trying to correct the JW on an ongoing basis. But mostly on Biblical arguments. For me to get into Constitutional law enforcement of civil standards may be pushing something new. Even if the arguments are theoretical only, and cannot be compelled by the letter in practice, the awareness alone that would be raised by pushing for these corrections might help a lot more people stand up AGAINST abuses. I would not just target the JW, though I will use that as an example since they are so self-proud of themselves they shouldn't mind. But also the abuses of authority among other institutions, including the bar associations that monopolize access to legal defense. It's not just the JW, but between them and the Pentecost, this highlights one serious area.

I'm sorry I'm no fun when I'm serious.
I also prefer to sing and dance and make fun of problems,
but that's only because I support real work on solutions also.
So the serious side and the satire go together, I guess one
being the comic relief for the other. Take care Orion. And your little Plad too!
<Insert good giggle for you and evil laugh for Plad
to keep up my bad reputation>

Originally Posted by O

Too many things are serious to you. I'm glad to see you lighten up a little and jab us with your satire instead of rambling on endlessly about things only you will read. We got some good laughs from you this week. I'm also glad to see you get mad and speak your mind about things you find abhorrent.

Woofy is new to the Card Carrying JW game. She seems to know her Bible well and shows herself to be honest and true to her belief. IMO...Too much interaction with the movers and shakers of her religion will harden her heart into the same kind of Putz we are up against in this forum. I will be sorry to see that happen. I really like Woof. She knows how to push my buttons to mellow me out when I get out of control. Kind of like you...

I have to say that the material she teaches is within her right to choose for herself. You being her "Genetic Equal" do not have the right to select the material for her. There is no TRUTH to either of your scenarios...IMO. The laws are already written that deal with those who lead others down a harmful path.

Yes, I do think WS has free choice and uses discretion. It's Anner and BSC I'm worried about are being taken advantage of.

[TantricRomantic]

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

I will TRY to keep this short. TRY!

[...]

Bun'cha stuff.. again..

[...]

1,097 words - I put it in M$ OFFICE and ran a word count.

[Cusco]

First of I would like to say I am sorry for your loss. I belive even as an Atheist, I can find it in my heart to show compasion, and emotion, and you don't need to belive in a Deity to do so.

But that said looking back at your original post any reader would have come to that same conclusion.

Cusco

Originally Posted by woofshepherd

And alot of surgeons are unaware to this matter. I had a pretty pathetic incident about 1 1/2 yr ago when my dad was in the hospital, he wasn't producing enough blood and they wanted to do a blood transfusion, he didn't want it he was a baptized witness, the whole time he was in the hospital he could not speak to us (he did pass away though

Originally Posted by woofshepherd

My dad did NOT die because he didn't receive a BT, he died because he had pneumonia and respiratory distress syndrome and RA. We did finally find a doctor that gave him the alternative to BT and it worked, it was just that his RA had progressed to much causing his body to be unable to fight the pneumonia.... and we found out later that the surgeon that argued with me, only wanted to do a BT because he wanted to do a lung biopsy which he would of died of anyways, so basically he wasn't going to make it either way we went. I just know that I am doing my best so that I can see him again in paradise. I know he is not suffering anymore and he is like if he were asleep, that is what comforts me the most.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by ecisgod

So, hypothetically speaking, if you DID have kids, you would have definitely made them eat shit.... because of your hatred of them?

Yes....and chained 'em up in a dark cellar full of crawly insects at night.

Originally Posted by BibleStudy

Oh didn't I dismiss you Plad. You just can't resist poping up. You love a good squirmish don't you?

The word is 'skirmish' you ignorant fanny.

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

Dear Plad and Orion: After I met with some other people in the Christian and legal community, I am leaning toward a formal petition or public rebuke of JW using Bible Scripture, so that instead of a lawsuit in court, it is a demand for corrections to false teaching that I fear is killing people.

Cue Wonder Woman music.

There should be knowledge that spiritual healing welcomes and works with science and medicine, and there is no need for rejection of any kind.

Out of the frying pan into the fire.

So I will ask for help to stop the false teaching on the grounds that it is bearing false witness, against Scriptural laws, and is violating equal protections of civil rights by federal laws. And I am hoping that just the publicity raised by such a petition might correct the problem in itself.

You should save your efforts for something more worthwhile.

But the "willful ignorance" shown by Anner and BSC seems downright dangerous, that the JW organization takes advantage of "undereducated" people who DON'T know civil or spiritual laws, and teach them to reject corrections that could save lives. So that is serious to me.

I'm with Orion on this one. As far as I'm concerned, the more JWs that die through there own self inflicted ignorance and stupidity, the better. I really don't give a toss about how many adult JWs top themselves but when they cause death to those unable to make decisions for themselves it angers me intensely.

I hope these issues with JW can be resolved with their elders and hierarchy, so that all other members can be reached as well, in order.

Well good luck with that....and don't forget your magic cape!!

Biblestudy can half think for himself, but half of him can't help it; he just does not know any better, and his "default" setting is to give the benefit of the doubt to the JW side. That is not really his fault if that was all he was taught.

'Taught'?? Indoctrinated would be a better word.

If that is what it takes, so be it. Someone has to take responsibility!

Do something more useful and constructive with your time rather than trying to stop the death wishes of a loony cult. Go work in Somalia or something.

If you applaud such a squirmish, .............

Skirmish!

[Orion]

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

I will TRY to keep this short. TRY!
1. Emilyspeak

2. A...More Emilyspeak
B. Even more Emilyspeak

3. and in Conclusion...

4. Summary and Epiloge

<Insert good giggle for you and evil laugh for Plad
to keep up my bad reputation>

OK. <----------------------------This is "short". Notice the difference?

Originally Posted by emilynghiem

Yes, I do think WS has free choice and uses discretion. It's Anner I'm worried about being taken advantage of.

A person can only be taken advantage of if they invite or allow it to happen.

[Otto]

Originally Posted by BibleStudy

Theres really NO SUCH THING as someone dying BECAUSE they were denied Blood. Doesn't fly in court. Can't proove it.

This statement is ludicrous.

If a human body loses more blood than it can naturally reproduce in a specific amount of time, that body dies.

Replace that lost blood through transfusion and the body lives. Who, in their right mind, would deny this obvious remedy?

[livelychati]

Originally Posted by Orion

You'll forgive me if I don't participate, Bro. He really gets up my nose...He makes me want to say and do things I most certainly would regret. I'll just sit back and let you and the rest who read his ignorant bullshit have fun exposing his stupidity. Sooner or later he'll get tired of it and go somewhere else.

BSC (as he insists on being called instead of BS for short) = BullShitCrap ... and the broccoli brain thought that by adding a "C" to BS would diminish the full frontal impact of that acronym!!

Just gotta quote Bugs here: What a maroon!!!