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Old 09-16-2006, 07:58 PM   #1
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Default Civility

In the name of God
The Source of our Existence


Chapter I: Civility
Chapter II: Adam and Eve Story of Paradise
Chapter III: Moses Story is a Fiction
Chapter IV: Christianity in Crisis
Chapter V: A Plausible Philosophy of Soul
Chapter VI: God Source of our Existence
Chapter VII: Fate Argument
Chapter VIII: Moses Story Hoax Argument
Chapter IX: Sounds and Music Argument
Chapter X: Is there a reason for Life?
Chapter XI: Ancient Jewish Communities
Chapter XII: Jesus Life and His Beliefs
Chapter XIII: Jesus Message and Jesus Miracles
Chapter XIV: Jesus and Judas Plan
Chapter XV: Jesus Resurrection
Chapter XVI: Jesus Movement after Jesus Crucifixion
Chapter XVII: Apostle Paul and Brotherhood Communities
Chapter XVIII: Destruction of Jewish Temple and Start of Christianity
Chapter XIX: Paul's Vision on Damascus' Road, Jesus Resurrection
Chapter XX: Islam in Crisis

When religions are considered and discussed part of the politics, then the religions are a Political Issue.
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:29 PM   #2
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Everybody in the world wishes to be called "Civilized".

Our conscious minds in different cultures have different values and different standards, but it seems we have reach to that core definition for Civility which everybody agrees with. Some of the core definitions are spelled out as:

Civility means full respect and advocate for Truth.
Civility means full respect for acquiring knowledge.
Civility means to live our lives with full respect for human equality and human dignity. Civility also invokes our obligation toward saving, improving, preserving the beauty of our environment for the future generations.

Of course for any specific issue they need to be weighed in, which definition should take the precedent. These notions of Civility resonant with the core values in all cultures. Even though many cultures might not measure up for full measures of Civility but they all strive or at least they pretend to be interested in achieving the status of a Civilized Culture.

I chose the title of "Civility" to measure up how our society is dealing with some of the hot subjects.

In this discussion I intend to address some of the issues which are affecting the Civility of our society in a profound way. By looking at the title of each chapter you can imagine how limited, brief, and simplistic my arguments might be. Under each of these titles there are literally hundreds and thousands of books out there which they have tried to examine the issues in a very meticulous and detailed way. So by comparison I have tried to articulate my views in just few pages, and I hope in those few brief pages to offer a view which might settle some of those difficult issues in a very logical manner. Some readers might appreciate the logic of some of my arguments, in that case I appeal to them that it is our civil duty to see those arguments to succeed and create the necessary changes which profoundly impacts the welfare of our society. We can not be passive and allow the established authority to control the issues of our Faith for their own interests. We can not allow the authorities to abuse our Faith and present us with gross deceptions. The Faith issues are so vital for the Civility of our societies which they have to be dealt with utmost integrity. No deception should be permitted with these fundamental issues which are impacting the health and the welfare of our conscious mind.

We have accepted that smoking is not good for public welfare, so government and various agencies are actively trying to limit the operation of the tobacco industry. However, some poisonous ideas which the Faith groups are using are damaging us far more than those tobacco industries. The deceptive Faith ideas are adversely impacting our Civility and our Liberty. The traditional Faith institutions have taken the control of some vital ideas and they are using them to extend their own self interest without any regards for the welfare and the interest of the general public. I do not mind their monopoly in the Faith issues if they had presented a genuine integrity in their behaviors. But these Faith establishments have shown least respect for the Truth and they have been more concern with their own domination and controls. It is so wrong that their bankrupt ideology to take control of the foundations of our vital Civility issues.

Let me tell you a little bit about myself. I am a man, I was born in Mashad-Iran, and I am 59 years old. In 1972 I moved to US, in year 2000 I became US citizen. I got a B.S. degree from Tehran University in Physics. I got my M.S. degree from San Francisco State University in Jan 1975. I was born as a Muslim. I practiced and studied Islam up to age of 23. I saw many flaws and contradictions in Islam so I stopped practicing Islam. For long time I did not wanted to be bothered with religions. But I experienced few phenomena which made me to believe in the existence of God. These experiences could not be repeated for verifications, so they were totally subjective experiences and they only made sense to me. Only the people who have had similar experiences in their lives they could relate to these kinds of experiences. So I am not going to mention these subjective experiences in these discussions. In regard to my belief in God I can state my position this way: believing in God should not bind us to accept the Holy Books as DIRECT words from God.

In my view the Holy Books are Man's wisdom about God and about human's nature which our ancestors had experienced in their lives and through the Holy Books they have tried to convey those findings to their descendents. The Holy Books touch something deep within their followers. Otherwise how could these fully contradictory materials endure so successfully in our scientifically modern societies?

The center piece of the messages in the Holy Books is the "EXISTENCE OF THE CREATOR" and the Human's nature. But as we know very well the content of some of the stories are totally flawed. And the reason for this is so obvious; the ancient Men interpreted their own revelations based on their own patented prejudices and their own limited knowledge of the environment. For example at present time, similar revelations for some Israelis would be interpreted as to push out the Palestinians out of the Promised Land and clear the land for the Israelis' settlers, and similar revelations for some Palestinians would be interpreted as to kill the Israeli invaders at all costs and fight for their Home Land. In this context the Holy Books are not Holy at all!

The same way that our modern science freed itself from those out-dated Religious teachings, our Religions also need to free themselves from suffocating control of the Holy Books. There is lots of wisdom in the Holy Books regarding Human's nature and our understanding about the Creator, but it is totally wrong to assume that God was directly the author of those books. This is a big sin to associate so much stupidity and ignorance to Mighty God. God is much Greater than that to make such stupid Mistakes. Actually, in this context the Holy Books are totally degrading the image of the Creator.

Based on this background and making some educated guess I have suggested some plausible solutions for the mysteries of the Holy Books, which I like to share them with you. I think our intelligence has reached to the sophistication which a civil discussion in these fields could be possible without causing too much anxiety. I hope that you could tolerate the short coming of my writings and just focusing on the gist of my arguments.

I do acknowledge this is an important and extremely difficult task which is affecting every one of us. These issues are woven into the fabrics of our societies and we are involved in these issues regardless of our own belief system. Everyday we get challenged for some of these issues. These issues are at our face if we like them or not. Everyday we need to adopt a position for some of these fundamental issues which are influencing our politics and social behaviors. There is no way to hide from them. So, at least for our own intellectual curiosity we need to digest the roots of these issues heads on, and resolve some of them to some degree of satisfaction. I do need help in this task, I appreciate your help.

May God Bless us All,
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Old 09-21-2006, 06:29 AM   #3
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Chapter I


Man realized his superiority over all the other animals was because of his magnificent brain power. His superb brain power had giving him the capability to talk, to reason, to plan, to organize, to invent, and to build with amazing ingenuity. The Monotheism institutions in recognition of this great superiority devised a special Theology to celebrate and to glorify Man's unique status above all the other animals. It is ironic the same Theology which was devised to glorify Man's great thinking power it has turned around and has deprived him from Free Thoughts!

In Christianity through the Original Sin Man is obligated to control his Free Will in order to control the temptation of his flesh, and live a virtuous life. To live a virtuous life Man needs to use the power of his brain FREELY in order to make virtuous choices. Using the power of his brain FREELY has resulted to some scientific findings which contradicts the validity of the scripture's claims. I don't know how the Monotheism institutions with any virtuous conscious could brush off these scientific findings? In fact any deceptive arguments do nullify their righteous status.

Socrates said: "Unexamined life it is not worth living."
We can say: "Unexamined Faith it is not worth having."

Darwin Theory of Evolution has exposed another fundamental flaw which is imbedded in the theologies of the Abrahamic Religions. According to the theory of Evolution Man is made of the same substances as the other living creatures. This throws out the concept of Man's Unique Soul. This is the main damage which the Abrahamic Faith desperately is trying to avoid. This looks like we are experiencing another episode of Earth orbits the Sun all over again!

God bless our modern science which has enlightened us from misconceptions. Without that we would be still living in the Dark Ages mentality.

It looks like that our enlightenment from the Creator has been frozen for 1400 years. From our own transcendent experiences we also suppose to add and to correct the content of the Holy Books. For sure the ancient Man with his limited knowledge of the environment had more courage and guts to explore and to explain his own experiences of Deity without being afraid that he might be wrong.

We can not pride our spiritual superiority over the other species if we disregard our superb human intelligence. The Creator blessed us with this powerful brain and superb intelligence to recognize the glory of the Creation. It is such a disappointment that some people can not grasp this obvious point. Trusting our own superb intelligence is the first step in the recognition of the Creator. Without such confidence we would not be able to have any real spiritual growth and we would be just like robots trying in vain to digest some outdated theologies.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Everybody in the world wishes to be called "Civilized".

Our conscious mind is wakening up to the meaning of the Civility.

It seems our conscious minds have intuitive notion of the Civility.

It looks like Civility is the ultimate wisdom which we strive for.

Civility is taking a Universal Standard, aside from our own perspective.

Civility and the notion of Humanity have the same meaning.

Civility means to control our selfish behavior.

Our Humanity is expressed with the Civility of our Deeds.

Civility is respecting the FREE EXPRESSIONS of ideas.

Civility is guiding us to a total Brotherhood.

We can achieve great things if we condone Civility.

Our Civility comforts our inner Soul.

Our deeds reveal the integrity and the level of our Civility.

Pure Civility is the sensitivity to all angles of the subject. But sometimes our Human limitations force us to sacrifice one noble deed in favor of the competing noble deed. An example of this would be; we will not interfere to save a deer from the attack by a wolf and we allow the wolf to succeed its killing.

Our Civility is our triumph over our Demon.

Our Civility is in opposite of the Jungle Law.

It is our Civil responsibility to speak out, cast out, and to expose all the evil customs and traditions.

"Don't do to the others the things which you don't like the others do to you."

The Civility obligates us to defend it very consciously. We can not be passive and watch the Civility to be violated so grossly.

It is the vital interest of our humanity that the civilized people to be in charge of all our public affairs. It defies any wisdom if we condone that less civilized people to control our destiny.

Our logical minds expect the Deity to be in harmony with the notion of the Pure Civility. In fact this is the only image of Deity which it makes sense. People quite often have questioned the Deity which lacks this maturity. A jealous God needs to work on his own mental conditions!

We need to have at least one hour of solitude walk each week. No companion, no cel-phone, no music, no dog, no distractions, just a simple tranquil walk to digest and explore the dynamics of the issues of our lives. Some free thinking is essential for our conscious awareness. Each event of our lives, good or bad, they play an important role in our development. We need to examine them in proper perspective which could enrich our Wisdom and may expand our Civility. We may lose our humanity if we let the material world to control us.

The same intense and strong emotions which are the sources of enormous fun, and enjoyments, and the dangerous temptations, they are also the essential elements which strengthen our deep thoughts and our perceptions. We need God's help to channel such a raw and wild energy to a constructive and positive direction. We can acquire God's blessing through our prayers and combined that with the power of our minds to make RIGHT choices for a satisfied and rich life, and a clear passage to our Enlightenment.

Our human nature can not be confined to only one structured model, no matter how well intentioned that model might be. Our nature needs to be free in order to inspire new visions and explore new possibilities in order to achieve our potentials. But our need for social coexistence demands us to accept and submit to the concept of Civility as the bases for our Universal Humanity. Under such framework we can measure the impact of our conducts within our own conscious minds.

May God Bless us All,
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Old 09-23-2006, 09:29 PM   #4
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Chapter II

Adam and Eve Story of Paradise

Hermeneutics is a branch of philosophy which discusses about the meaning and the interpretation of a text. This method of interpretation has been expanded to the other fields of human expressions like paintings and other human sciences. Language is an institution which has a dynamic nature and its nature and its meaning evolves with time. There is a history behind the phrases which we use that gives a special meaning to our phrases. The environment, the culture, the psychology of the author, and the time which a story has been recorded have a lot to do with the under laying meaning of a story. Because of the very ancient nature of the Adam and Eve story most of these factors are missing from our analysis. So that makes our interpretation very speculative. The historical evidences which we can acknowledge regarding this story mostly comes from the Genesis in the Holy Bible and some Mesopotamian tablets which have been found from the ancient sites. Our new findings regarding the history of Man's culture and the origins of his civilizations are great help in deciphering this ancient story. If we put our own religious biases aside then we might portrait a plausible picture which would be in harmony with our logic and does not often our intelligence. If we are rejecting the Established Religions' explanations regarding the origins of the Genesis story, then we need to have a plausible answer for its origins and its motive.

Couple years ago I saw a documentary on PBS. Archeologist David Rohl started with the four rivers which have been described in the Genesis story. He also referred to an ancient Sumerian cuneiform clay tablets which is held by the Museum of the Orient in Istanbul, and few other ancient writings which have been discovered in Mesopotamia, he concluded that Paradise, Garden of Eden, was located at ten miles northwest of present Tabriz-Iran.

The Paradise Garden described in the Bible as the place where the headwaters of four rivers: the Tigris, the Euphrates, the Gihon, and the Pishon. Obviously, the Tigris and Euphrates are well-known rivers, but the other two have been real problems in the past. Rohl has identified them as the Araxes and Uizhun, which puts the headwaters of all four rivers in his Eden. Interestingly, the Uizhun, Rohl's equivalent to the Pishon which the Bibles identifies with gold, is known locally as the Golden River, and meanders between ancient gold mines and lodes of lapis lazuli.

Making his case even stronger, Rohl says that he has found the "Land of Nod" which the Bible describes as "East of Eden." Nod was Cain's place of exile after the murder of his brother Abel. Today the area is called "Noqdi."

But it doesn't end there because a few kilometers south of Rohl's Nod, at the head of a mountain pass, lays the sleepy town of Helabad. Formerly it was known as "Kheruabad," which means "settlement of the Kheru people." He believes that this could be a permutation of the Hebrew word keruvim that is translated as "Cherubs." These people were a tribe of fearsome warriors whose token was an eagle or falcon.

And if this isn't enough to get your attention yet, he has also found what he believes to be the biblical "Land of Cush." No, it's not located down in Egypt as scholars have declared for centuries. It's just north of the Adji Chay river valley and over the Kusheh Daugh - the Mountain of Kush. One of the four rivers described above winds through it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I do acknowledge the Genesis story in the Old Testament can not be resolved amicably to all the experts' likings. I sensed this confusion arises because the writers of the Old Testament themselves were confused people about the subject which they were writing about! All their knowledge about the same subject had come through word of mouth. And you can imagine the same story would have totally different twist and turns if it was told few thousand years later in the Mediterranean shores versus the cities in the Mesopotamia. So one can guess how accurate those stories might be! From the bits and pieces of information that we can put it together from various ancient sources we can make some educated guesses about the origins of those ancient stories which would be plausible to our common sense today.

It seems Adam and Eve story in Garden of Eden could be an actual and normal event, and not the creation story of Adam and Eve as the first couple on the surface of the earth, but rather the first couple who founded a tribe which their decedents were remembering them.

Before the human’s agriculture settlements, humans were mostly nomad people who were wondering on the surface of the earth looking for foods by gathering and hunting. Some humans were cave dwellers, but still the sources of their food were based on gathering and haunting. It seems very early humans learnt how to domesticate some animals like sheep, goats, and cows and move them around as herds. Herds were reliable source of food, and they could be moved around as they were looking for better pastures. At present time there are some nomad tribes who still are following this very ancient lifestyle. Every year at spring time they migrate to mountain heights for better pasture and more temperate weather and at fall they move down to plains for warmer weather. Some of these nomad tribes in Iran have few hundred thousands people and they live under tents.

For the story of Adam and Eve it seems a nomad tribe found a good pasture land in Paradise as it was identified by David Rohl. The area had good temperate weather and volcanic soil was very fertile, there were year round fellow of many streams. There were plenty of fruit trees for their consumption and their herds could be fed with abundance of vegetations. Apparently that tribe found it comfortable to settle in Paradise and they did not need to move around any longer, and they built huts with clay bricks and they used it for their permanent homes, which were much better shelter for them than the tents. Settling permanently in one place gave them the opportunity to learn about the secrets of the agriculture and farming. Because of farming they thrived even more. So compare to the uncertain life of nomads, of hunting and gathering food, the Paradise community was enjoying from abundance of food and comfortable and permanent homes.

Living in any community we need to apply some rules for the members of the community and our behaviors. Some of the basic rules which we must adopt in forming any communities are against killing each other and stealing from each other. Without these rules to control our own wild and free characters no society could be formed. To maintain the community rules the community needs an arbitrator to pass on judgments against the violators. So the community in Paradise had adopted those basic rules to maintain their community.

Actually if we think rationally about the Genesis story without getting distracted by the myth we can realize the Genesis story at its root is the first historic story which is discussing of the killing and stealing crimes and passing judgments on those crimes. And later on that story was modified and elaborated to become part of a religious story of Creation in the Mesopotamia societies.

First let me prove that in Paradise community there were other members besides Adam, Eve, Abel, and Cain. By examining the following verses from the Genesis we can see after Cain killed his brother Abel, he was fearful for his life to be attacked by OTHERS. So according to the story at that point there were other people existed on the earth beside Adam, Eve, and Cain.

Genesis 4:14 Look! You are driving me off the land today and I must hide from your presence. I will be a homeless wanderer on the earth; whoever finds me will kill me." 4:15 But the Lord said to him, "All right then, if anyone kills Cain, Cain will be avenged seven times as much." Then the Lord put a special mark on Cain so that no one who found him would strike him down. 4:16 So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

4:17 Cain had marital relations with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was building a city, and he named the city after his son Enoch.

This passage indicates God gave Cain security, but at this point only Adam, Eve, and Cain supposed to be on the surface of the earth, so God could simply tell to Adam and Eve: "Don’t harm Cain." But God is issuing a more general proclamation for the safety of Cain. Also the existence of a woman whom Cain took her as his wife is another clear indication that there were other people on the surface of the earth at that time. Also, Cain builds a city. We might ask for whom?

The other interesting term which is used in the story is the word "Homeless". Which in some sense, it is pointing to the notion of a permanent place.

So it is rational to think that Paradise community was fairly large community, and Cain had killed Abel who was a member of that community, and then Cain was fearful for his life that Abel’s family and relatives would be seeking revenge against him. So Cain is accepting the verdict and he is going to exile, but he wants assurance that he would not be attacked by the others. In this scenario we can imagine that Adam and Eve were a young couple living in the Paradise community and they witnessed the Cain murder story and his trial and the verdict against him by the Arbitrator. Later on Adam and Eve told that story to their children.

In the same scenario I can imagine that Adam and Eve stole some fruits from their neighbors. Then the Arbitrator asks Adam why he stole the fruits, Adam blamed the crime on his wife, Eve, and he said something like this: "it was Eve fault, because she suggested stealing the fruits." But Eve had no defense then she blamed it on the devil. Man had built a fear of snake; since snake would harm them so severely and so unexpectedly. Snake was a symbol of the devil. So, Eve blamed her crime on the devil. Then, according to the community rule for stealing the Arbitrator kicked them out of the Paradise too.

Even today we see the arbitrator is the wisest elder man in a tribe. Actually in all villages in Iran an arbitrator is selected by the villagers or he gets appointed by the government. The title of the arbitrator is "Kad Khoda". In Farsi language in some words the letter "t" are interchangeable with letter "d". So I think the original title of the Arbitrator was "Kat Khoda". "Kat" is a Turkish word means "Village" and "Khoda" is a Persian word means "God". So "Kat Khoda" literally means "God of the Village". In this region the Turkish words are used for many naming, actually river Uizhun which David Rohl identified as the equivalent of the Bible's Pishon is a Turkish word means "Long". So I think in the Paradise community the title of the arbitrator was called "Khoda" (God) who was an Old Wise Man. And that Old Wise Man (God) passed those Judgments against Cain for killing Abel and Against Adam and Eve for stealing fruits.

Adam and Eve settled in the Eastern side of the Paradise. And their family grew in numbers. Their descendants were remembering them as the founders of their tribe. Cain settled outside of the Paradise in land of Nod and Married to a woman from another tribe and had a son named Enoch. Adam and Eve told these true historic events to their descendants. Through many generations those stories were evolved and some smart story tellers used their imaginations and add and changed the story line which made them mystical and gradually they made the Genesis story of Creation.

I do acknowledge that there is no evidence to support this plausible conclusion. The only thing which is really in favor of this rationality is that this conclusion fits perfectly with all aspects of the story line. Also this rational is inline with our knowledge of the history of the human agricultural settlements. Besides, there are many serious problems with the existing Genesis story which is in contradiction with all of our scientific discoveries about the origins of Man and his civilizations. So under this situation the new explanation even though it might be interpreted as purely speculative, but it does offer a way out to put the account of Adam and Eve story in a proper perspective.

May God Bless us all,

Last edited by Unes; 09-24-2006 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 09-26-2006, 11:45 AM   #5
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Chapter III

Moses Story is a Fiction

Moses story is the most important story in the Old Testament. So, we need to examine how a devoted Jew would look at Moses Story from his perspective. Moses Story was the most important story which influenced Jesus thoughts. We can not understand Jesus ministry without knowing Moses Story. Moses Story gave Jesus courage, determination, and absolute trust in God's active participation and intervention in the affairs of the Israelites. Moses Story is the only story of the Old Testament which shows the power of God which actively fought for Israelites and he crushed and humiliated Pharaoh's Might with such ease. Moses Story is the only story of the Bible which God physically lives in a tent amongst the Israelites.

Moses story also brought God Commandments to the Israelites and it showed explicitly what God expects from his chosen people. This story showed so clearly how God would fulfill all Israelites' needs and how Israelites suppose to follow and administer whole heartily all of God's Commandments. This story also showed how God can force his commands and nothing can oppose his will. Moses Story is very clear about what happens to the Israelites if they do not follow the Ten Commandments.

Now, let us examine Moses Story logically. We need to explore at least two aspects of Moses Story. First of all to examine if the story is a historic event or it is a fiction. And second what is the possible motif behind this fascinating and elaborate story which the writer is really wants to achieve and to promote.

There have been numerous research and archeological commissions, dedicated mainly on finding and verifying the historical evidence of this famous Story. Unfortunately so far none of those efforts could produce a single proof in support of the historic event. There are numerous publications and articles regarding the place where the Red Sea was departed and the Israelites crossed the Red Sea. There are countless books and articles about the validity or lack of validity of Moses Story. Hollywood has produced many movies about this exciting Story. This elaborate story has fascinated Man for over 3000 years. Here, I will show you in few short passages that Moses story has to be a FICTION.

Archeologists have spent enormous energy and resources to find supporting evidence in Egypt and other ancient sites regarding the Israelites' Exodus, but they could not find a single reference regarding the Jewish Exodus anywhere, except in the Old Testament. Archeologists comb through Sinai desert for the evidence of Israelites mass migration. There is not a shrewd of archeological evidence of such a large migration. According to the Torah in book of Exodus: 38:26 . . . from twenty years old or older, number of Israelites is reported 603,550. In book of Numbers 26:51 The number of the Israelites is reported 601,730. This is the Number of Israelite men over the age of twenty, not counting the women and the children. There should have been tons of evidence of such big mass of people lived in Sinai desert for forty years. There should be some broken pottery, some domestic animal bones, some human's tombs, human's waste, and so on. But there is no evidence of such a great migration!

At the end of the day there are a lot of confusions about the Moses Story. The Believers have firm faith in the story and in God, and the non believers are puzzled how could such huge number of people fall for a story which could not be verified anywhere?

For the evidences I suggest; you do not have to look far. The evidences are right in the story; they are screaming at us for recognition; we only have to look for them very carefully.

In our modern day to report the truth about any story, the news media interview the eye witnesses. The law enforcements interrogate the eye witnesses. Our courts get the testimonies of the witnesses to find out the truth. The eye witnesses give the first hand information about any story and based on those testimonies we try to construct the truth.

Were there any eye witnesses for the Moses Story? Of course there were; the Israelites who made the great migration were our witnesses. They witnessed all the events first hand. Did those Israelites give any testimony regarding those events? Yes they did. Their actions were recorded right in the Moses Story and I am going to look closely to those actions to see if I can figure out what happened.

In book of Exodus 19:1 In the third month after the Israelites went out from the land of Egypt, on the very day, they came to the Desert of Sinai. Three month after crossing the Red Sea the Israelites met God in person. In Exodus 19:10 God is clearly preparing the Israelites to see him. God personally came down on Mount Sinai and people could see his glory and could hear his voice:

Exodus 19:16 And on the third day in the morning there were thunders and lightning and a dense cloud on the mountain, and the sound of a very loud horn; and all the people who were in the camp trembled. 19:17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they took their place at the lower end of the mountain. 19:18 Now Mount Sinai was completely covered with smoke because the Lord had descended on it in fire; and its smoke went up like the smoke of a great furnace, and the whole mountain shook greatly. 19:19 When the sound of the horn grew louder and louder, Moses was speaking and God was answering him with a voice.

19:20 And the Lord came down on Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain; and the Lord summoned Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.

19:24 And the Lord said to him, “Go, get down. And you will come up, and Aaron with you; but do not let the priests and the people force their way through to come up to the Lord,

Also, in Exodus 20:1 through 20:17 God personally told people about the Ten Commandments. Then Moses went to the Mount Sinai to receive the Tablets of the Ten Commandments. It took Moses forty days to receive the Ten Commandments Tablets, meanwhile the Israelites did something very peculiar: Exodus 32:1 When the people saw that Moses delayed in coming down from the mountain, they gathered together around Aaron and said to him, "Get up, make us gods that will go before us. As for this fellow Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him!"

Those Israelites had witnessed a lot of miracles including the greatest, the most fascinating Miracles in whole Bible; the Passover, the Crossing of the Red Sea, and so on. Those Israelites had seen the total annihilation of the Egyptian army and the humiliation of mighty Pharaoh. Each of those Israelites individually had seen the Glory of God, and they had heard his voice. And now just three month after Crossing of the Red Sea, just few weeks after seeing the Glory of God on Mount Sinai and hearing his voice, those Israelites had rebelled against Moses and God!? Those Israelites wished to abandon the mighty God and they desired to have a golden molten calf as their gods!?


I guess those rebellious Israelites before rebelling against Moses they could not simply climb Mount Sinai and look for Moses and then make their PECULIAR MOVE! According to the story God was still up there talking to Moses! And probably his glory could be seen from the foot of the Mount Sinai! As we read; Moses in very short time climbed up the mountain and came back to take Aaron with him and they both climbed up the mountain again. So Mount Sinai could not be that high. Beside on Exodus 19:24 Aaron accompanied Moses to the top of Mount Sinai to meet God. Then how could this High Priest violate his own duty and make a Golden Calf for the rebels!?

Any person witnessing so many miracles first hand could not behave so strangely! These Israelites could not simply deny the most powerful God who actively was fighting for them, who was helping them, who was feeding them everyday, and who showed them so many miracles. The odd behavior of those Israelites defies any logic that we could imagine. No creature on this Earth could behave that strangely.

Nobody can accept that once upon a time there was a tribe on the surface of this Earth that they personally saw such Impressive Miracles from God and they personally saw the glory of God first hand and then they turned around and they rejected Mighty God! This can not be! I can not accept this, even if you claim those Israelites were hypnotized or they were drugged by the Egyptians!

Besides, those Israelites were not just any people, they were the chosen people! Their ancestors had long history and traditions and covenants with the Invisible God. They had very intimate relation with the Invisible God. They were very familiar with the Invisible God and they had been worshipping the Invisible God throughout of their history. The Invisible God had been with them for many generations, helping them, guiding them, giving them their laws, defining their moral values, their identities, and so on. Even when they were in bondage in Egypt, those Israelites still were worshipping the Invisible God! Those Israelites had never worshipped the Golden Calf before! And now, all of sudden, those Israelites were abandoning their Mighty God!? And they wanted to replace that familiar, powerful, and helping God with a Golden Calf which it could not do anything!? Come on, this is too much! There should be a limit to the human insanity! This is such a disgrace to the Human Intelligence which I am not finding the right word to express my disbelief. No matter how simple minded one can get, they should not accept such an unbelievable story as a historical event!

Besides, what made those Israelites so sure that Pharaoh would take them back? Pharaoh had been humiliated, he had lost his army, and he had suffered so much prestige. So it would have been unlikely that Pharaoh would welcome them back. Didn't Pharaoh chase the Israelites before they escaped by crossing the Red Sea!? Pharaoh chased them not to get them back, but to destroy them! Now that Pharaoh had lost his army because of them, what do think Pharaoh would do to them if he could get his hands on them!?

Let us look at that strange behavior from another angle. If you treat harshly any animal which is in captivity, then that animal would escape the first opportunity that it could get and it would never look back. Now, those Israelites Voluntarily wanted to go back to the harsh slavery condition? This defies the behavior of any living creatures on this Earth. Moses Story argues that those Israelites in Sinai desert were in desperate situation, fearing a certain death. This is simply not true, because the story ignores the HELPING GOD who was actively protecting them and was providing for them EVERY DAY. This is totally a different scenario from the WWII Holocaust situation, as one Jewish scholar put it this way: "During the Holocaust in WWII, God was on vacation!" The situation of Israelites in Sinai was very different; God was actively interested in those Israelites and everyday was providing for them bread from heaven and some meat from birds. Heck, God even came down to Mount Sinai to meet with those Israelites in person! No other human's experience can top that! God cared for those Israelites in an unprecedented manner. Never before or ever after God acted in that manner again. God openly revealed his power, his glory, and his presence to those Israelites. God's interaction with those Israelites as incredible and remarkable as it sounds still it does not even come close to the strange behavior of those Israelites toward that helping and caring God! This scenario is impossible beyond any doubt.

The only logic that could bring sanity to those incredible behaviors of the Israelites is accepting the Moses Story as a Fiction. In the realm of fictions the writers can make all kinds of mistakes!

May God Bless us All,
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Old 09-29-2006, 12:21 PM   #6
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Default Christianity in Crisis

Chapter IV

Christianity in Crisis

Nobody disputes that Jesus was a devoted Jew, and he lost his life for Jewish causes. While Jesus was alive he did not change any of the Jewish laws. At that time Judaism was under assault from the competition by the Romans' Pagan Religion. Jesus was preaching to his fellow Jews to practice and to preserve Judaism in its entirety and do not astray from the Laws of Moses. Then, how can we accept that "in the name of Jesus" all these changes have been done to the Judaism that this is not Judaism any more!? And all these changes were revealed after Jesus was gone!? How simple minded one can get!?

The Bible quotes a lot of statements from Jesus. Jesus whole heartily followed Judaism and he was crucified for the causes of the Judaism. All his disciples earnestly followed the same path. Then how can we accept the word of the people who overrode Jesus!? Are we supposed to follow Jesus or we suppose to dismiss Jesus and follow Paul!?

Christianity is an adaptation of the Judaism and the Romans' Pagan Religion. Caesar Augustus was a god, by the tradition of the Romans' Pagan Religion Jesus was declared God. How can the Christian Church invite its followers to practice Trinity, which Totally Violates the First Commandment!? And this is the essence what Jesus was preaching against. This is quite unlikely that Jesus lived his entire life as a Jew and he was urging his fellow Jews to preserve Judaism, and after he died his spirit reversed all his teachings and started Christianity, which is totally a New Religion, and it contradicts Judaism in its core beliefs.

All those early CRUCIAL CHANGES were initiated ONLY by Apostle Paul, who claimed he had seen a vision of Jesus on the Road to Damascus. After seeing Jesus vision Paul whole heartily was devoted to Jesus brotherhood movement. Barnabas, who was a friend of Paul, helped him to be accepted into the Jesus Community in Jerusalem. Jesus community in Jerusalem was the Headquarter of the Jesus movement. The leaderships in Jerusalem were consisted of the Super Apostles, who had been with Jesus when he was alive. After that introduction in Jerusalem, Apostle Paul joined his friend Barnabas who already had established a Jesus community at the city Antioch, about 300 miles north of Jerusalem.

From the beginning Apostle Paul was seeking to promote Jesus brotherhood to the Gentiles. Apostle Paul convinced the leaderships in Jerusalem to authorize him to recruit the Gentiles into the Jesus brotherhood Movement. Paul acquired a letter from the Jerusalem leadership to pursue his vision in recruiting the Gentiles.

Apostle Paul knew he had to make it easy for the new recruits in order to convert them. Paul was very open-minded in this issue. He had much bigger ambition for the Jesus brotherhood movement. So Apostle Paul relaxed the Jewish bloodline requirement, circumcision requirement, and kosher food requirement for the new Gentile recruits. So in Antioch Jesus community, there were two tables for their meals, one for Jews with kosher food and one for Gentiles. To improve the community fellowship Paul was persuading the two groups join each other's table and ignore the formality of the setup. At this point Apostle Peter was also living in Antioch community and he did not object to any of the rules which Apostle Paul was implementing.

Everything was fine, until couple observers from the Jerusalem leaderships arrived to examine the progress in the Antioch community. These observers were astounded to see how grossly Judaism had been ignored. They strongly objected to the Antioch community arrangement. They totally dismissed Paul for such a setup. They charged that the Sacred Laws of the Judaism had been violated to its core. Apostle Peter who was participating in Gentile meal table, then he withdrew and Joined to the Jewish kosher meal table. The following Passage is from Galatians which it describes Apostle Paul's outrage of the incident:

Paul Rebukes Peter

Galatians 2:11 But when Cephas(This individual is generally identified with the Apostle Peter ) came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. 2:12 Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. 2:13 And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy.

In Jesus community in Antioch Paul's views were totally pushed aside. This incident very clearly indicates that all the surviving Super Apostles unanimously rejected Paul's position and Paul's revelations. Now that the entire surviving Super Apostle rejected Paul's revelations then how can we accept them as genuine instructions from Jesus? This proves Paul's revelations are void.

It defies any logic that Jesus for such Major Reversals in his own belief system and the initiation of such Critical Changes to the Judaism he would have completely ignored all his beloved Disciples, and he only had communicated such Earth Shaking Changes just with Apostle Paul. It is inconceivable that we ignore Jesus personal beliefs when he was alive along with all the Super Apostles beliefs and just simply depend on Paul's words. How did Paul acquire such a prominent position which he even over-rides Jesus? Apostle Paul was a very clever man. He knew absolutely there was no chance for him to suggest those changes on his own account then he implemented them in the name of Jesus.

After the confrontation in Antioch community Paul was very disappointed and he traveled to the cities in Greece, Macedonia, and Asia Minor to establish his own version of Jesus movements fresh. Paul was promoting a version of Judaism which would bring Jews and Gentiles together for a unified brotherhood without emphasizing on the Jewish laws and Jewish bloodline. This is the version which at the end succeeded and was labeled as Christianity Faith. Paul's letters and his vision of making the brotherhood movement easy for the new Roman converts were the keys for the creation and the success of the Christianity. We can confidently claim that Apostle Paul on his own initiative used Jesus' Fame to establish the new Christianity Faith.

Paul's revelation: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"

Here, Jesus is telling Paul, that those Jesus followers are his disciples. And he approves of them. Then, when the Super Apostles rejected the changes which Paul was trying to implement in the Antioch community, that meant they rejected Paul's view altogether. This is a straight forward logic, which impeaches Paul's revelation.

We can not accept that those changes happened maybe because after the crucifixion Jesus changed his mind and he realized Judaism was no good any more! Or, claim that maybe then, the Resurrected Jesus got in charge of the divinity, and he changed some of the sacred laws which God had sent earlier! Then, we need to ask; did God approve of what his beloved Son was doing to his sacred laws!? Did God approve his Chosen People being cursed like that!? Or maybe we supposed to believe that by then God was retired!? We can not act like a retarded person and ignore all these revealing accounts.

It is ironic for the people who scientifically are the most advanced civilizations they follow such incoherent theology! It seems when it comes to digest their spiritual beliefs the Dark Ages has never left them. Where is the Logic which has achieved them so much glory? A high school student would have stronger Logic and shows far more Intelligence than this!

I do feel the pain and the distress which this view would inflect on the followers of the Abrahamic Faith. And I do sympathize with their dilemma. This is very disorienting for them to lose the safety of their familiar Faith. But all of us are empowered to endure and to absorb these challenges for our growth. Mentally our lives are not meant to be easy. Sometimes through the hardship we learn the most enlightening messages of our lives.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Even though most Christian groups emphasis that Gospels are word of God but in 1965 POPE PAUL VI held Vatican 2nd Council for the affairs and the theology of the Catholic Church. That Council adopted NOSTRA AETATE. That document rejects any ill-feelings towards non-Christians. The document reversed the Christian doctrine of hatred toward the Jews, who were blamed for the crucifixion of Jesus. Also, on March 2000 POPE JOHN PAUL II apologized for the Church’s prosecution of Jews throughout the Church history. Also, in 1969 the Protestant Church repudiated Martin Luther teaching on the Jews, and in 2002 a new revision was announced.

So, the Christian Church does not really consider the Gospels as words of God. Otherwise how could they alter the words of God?

Gospel of Mathew regarding Jews: 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could do nothing, but that instead a riot was starting, he took some water, washed his hands before the crowd and said, “I am innocent of this man’s blood. You take care of it yourselves!” 27:25 In reply all the people said, “Let his blood be on us and on our children!”

Gospel of John regarding Jews: 8:44 You people are from your father the devil, and you want to do what your father desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

The Synod of ELVIRA was held in 306 AD, and was attended by bishops, and presbyters, mostly from Spain. The Synod passed eighty one Latin canons. The Synod also defined the Christian position against the Jews. The Church seized the opportunity to please the Romans at the expense of the Jews. Christians were forbidden to marry Jews. By issuing a hate doctrine against the Jews the church authorities were trying to put all the Jesus crucifixions blame on Jews’ shoulders. This verdict left the Romans innocent of any evil deeds, and this paved the path toward Emperor Constantine conversion to Christianity. In 306 AD Emperor Constantine Converted to Christianity. Any conscious human beings would utterly resent this ugly politics. I suspect at this time Church also altered the content of the Gospels to justify its new doctrine.

The doctrine that Jesus crucifixion was caused and was blamed on Jews were resonant by other revelations all throughout the Christian history, here I would like to mention the views of SAINT HILDEGARD VON BINGEN (1098-1179) and Martin Luther (1483-1546):

Hildegard’s revelations revealed Jews’ conduct on Jesus crucifixion was the Haynes crime against God and the humanity. Hildegard revelation gave the idea wiping out the Jews from the surface of the earth would prepare for the second coming of Christ and establishment of God’s Kingdom on earth. That caused the crusaders’ mass killing of thousands of Jews all over Europe.

In 1938, on Martin Luther's birthday, Nazis and their supporters went throughout Germany and broke Jewish shops, destroyed Jewish synagogues. It was the "night of broken glass," the Kristallnacht. At the same day, one of the Nazi bishops published a treatise with excerpts, some of the most horrible excerpts from Luther's anti-Jewish writings. And in the preface, he said, "At the time the western democracies are criticizing us for the treatment of the Jews, it is time for the Germans to hear from that great German hero, Martin Luther, the great prophet of his people against the Jews.

Martin Luther: "Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them."

Martin Luther: "However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath."

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

In 1969 the Vatican formally repudiated the false image of Mary Magdalene. In search for truth, the Christian Church straightened up the image of Mary Magdalene as one of the prominent Jesus disciples and not the repented prostitude.

Vatican declaration 1999: "In his new Paschal glory, Jesus tells her to proclaim to the disciples that he has risen: “Go to my brethren” (Jn 20:17). For this reason, Mary Magdalen could be called “the apostle of the Apostles"

Mark Gospel 8:2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and disabilities: Mary (called Magdalene), from whom seven demons had gone out,

Also in Mark 16:9 Early on the first day of the week, after he arose, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had driven out seven demons.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On 321 AD Emperor Constantine decrees Sunday as official Roman Christian day of Rest.

Saturday is a very IMPORTANT Day in Judaism; it is the Sabbath Day.
Nobody can claim that Emperor Constantine had any mandate from God to switch the REST DAY from SATURDAY to SUNDAY. This is a vivid example of the nature of the material in the Holy Bible.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

We saw that Church changed its position on Jews, on Mary Magdalene, on polygamy, on Galileo, on Switching Saturday with Sunday for Day of Rest, on selecting Dec 25th as Jesus Birthday, on Selecting April as Easter, on consumption of pork, on circumcision, and few other issues, these changes prove that the Bible and the Gospels are not infallible and they can not be considered as word of God, otherwise how could they alter the contents of the Holy Bible?

In the First Council of Nicaea the Church authorities were persuaded to adapt the Roman religious model for the Christian church. So similar to the Roman pagan religion, in Christian church Jesus is revered as God:

"... being of the same substance with the Father, through whom all things were made both in Heaven and on Earth; ..."

Now, let us observe few verses from Gospels:

Luke Gospel 18:18 Now a certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18:19 Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

John Gospel 14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

John Gospel 5:30 I can do nothing on my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of the one who sent me.

Mark Gospel 13:32 “But as for that day or hour no one knows it neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son except the Father.

Mathew Gospel 24:36 “But as for that day and hour no one knows it not even the angels in heaven—except the Father alone.

These verses are clearly indicates that God status is totally different from that of Jesus. But the Christian Church doctrines defy these verses and mostly they try to follow the Romans' Pagan Religion's model.

In Old Testament we read: Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other gods before me.

Here we see God explicitly has forbidden Israelites to worship any other Gods. Then how can we reconcile this explicit commandment with the idea of the Trinity in Christianity?

Such a crude, confused, and contradictory theology!

We are civilized and intelligent enough to reject these kinds of False and outrages claims. The Trinity theology goes totally against the First Commandment, and it is degrading to the image of our Creator, and it is an insult to our own Intelligence. Only gullible people could fall for such a primitive and phony theology. Our human dignity deserves better than this.

But some would argue that we draw our Moral Laws from the scriptures. To answer these believers let us examine few passages from Genesis:

Genesis 12:10 There was a famine in the land, so Abram went down to Egypt to stay for a while because the famine was severe. 12:11 As he approached Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, “Look, I know that you are a beautiful woman. 12:12 When the Egyptians see you they will say, ‘This is his wife.’ Then they will kill me but will keep you alive. 12:13 So tell them you are my sister, so that it may go well for me because of you and my life will be spared on account of you.”

12:14 When Abram entered Egypt, the Egyptians saw that the woman was very beautiful. 12:15 When Pharaoh’s officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh. So Abram’s wife was taken into the household of Pharaoh, 12:16 and he did treat Abram well on account of her. Abram received sheep and cattle, male donkeys, male servants, female servants, female donkeys, and camels.

12:17 But the Lord struck Pharaoh and his household with severe diseases because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 12:18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why didn’t you tell me that she was your wife? 12:19 Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her to be my wife? Here is your wife! Take her and go!” 12:20 Pharaoh gave his men orders about Abram, and so they expelled him, along with his wife and all his possessions.

Even though I might sympathize with Abraham's dilemma, but I can hardly valued the scripture as an authority for Moral guideline! Frankly, according to our today society laws, Abraham would be arrested for being a pimp of the worst kind. By contrast Pharaoh showed such civilized behavior!

Let us examine another passage:

Genesis 19:30 Lot went up from Zoar with his two daughters and settled in the mountains because he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 19:31 Later the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man anywhere nearby to have sexual relations with us, according to the way of all the world. 19:32 Come, let’s make our father drunk with wine so we can have sexual relations with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

19:33 So that night they made their father drunk with wine and the older daughter came and had sexual relations with her father. But he was not aware that she had sexual relations with him and then got up. 19:34 Then in the morning the older daughter said to the younger, “Since I had sexual relations with my father last night, let’s make him drunk again tonight. Then you go and have sexual relations with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 19:35 So they made their father drunk that night as well and the younger came and had sexual relations with him. But he was not aware that she had sexual relations with him and then got up.

19:36 In this way both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 19:37 The older daughter gave birth to a son and named him Moab. He is the ancestor of the Moabites of today. 19:38 The younger daughter also gave birth to a son and named him Ben-Ammi. He is the ancestor of the Ammonites of today.

It is quite clear that town of Zoar was spared during the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and Lot lived in town of Zoar for awhile, and later on because he was afraid to live in Zoar he moved to a cave in mountain. So Lot's daughters saw other people who were living in Zoar. But the daughters' sole intention to get pregnant by their father was to preserve their father's blood line: "so we can preserve our family line through our father." The Jews pride themselves to be the blood line of Abraham. Judaism is based purely on blood line and Judaism is not an open religion which the other people could join them. Jews own the oldest race club in the world!

Let me give another example of this concept.

Genesis 34:11 Then Shechem said to Dinah’s father and brothers, “Let me find favor in your sight, and whatever you require of me I’ll give. 34:12 You can make the bride price and the gift I must bring very expensive, and I’ll give whatever you ask of me. Just give me the young woman as my wife!” . . .

34:15 We will give you our consent on this one condition: you must become like us by circumcising all your males. 34:16 Then we will give you our daughters to marry, and we will take your daughters as wives for ourselves . . .

34:24 All the men who assembled at the city gate agreed with Hamor and his son Shechem. Every male who assembled at the city gate was circumcised. 34:25 In three days, when they were still in pain, two of Jacob’s sons, Simeon and Levi, Dinah’s brothers, each took his sword and went to the unsuspecting city and slaughtered every male.

As you see Jacob and his sons had no intention to let their sister to marry an outsider and mess up their blood line.

These are the examples of the Moralities which have been approved by the scriptures. Then, what can we say about a society who has these kinds of passages for their Moral Guideline!? Is this the best Moral guideline that our society can offer!? Such a waste for our superb Intelligence! Can we still call such society as a civilized society? Certainly not! There are certain rational and behavior a society must adopt in order to be called civilized, and these kinds of Moral guidelines are for sure contrary to the criteria of a civilized society.

The scriptures do not even reach to the level of today's Human Intelligence. So, how does it justify to be labeled as the verses from the Creator of this Magnificent Universe!? After all, what kind of God is this who has made so many stupid assertions? For sure our own intelligence has out-grown this stupid image! Have we lost our mind!? It might be alright that we shamelessly remain passive and dumb, but it is Ultimate Sin to associate so much stupidity to God! God would be very disappointed by the extent of the stupidity in his Prized Creation!

We SCOFFED at the ancient Egyptians mythologies for being so absurd, but in all fairness to the Egyptians, logically their theologies fitted perfectly with their knowledge of their environment. But what can we say for our own ignorance?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Beside of the Faith issues, the Churches, Synagogues, and Mosques are playing an important role administering fellowship and social functions. These functions and community supports are vital for the mental health and stability of many individuals who are the followers of these institutions. Think how much more effective these institutions would become if ideologically they join together in practicing the Civility doctrine.

May God Bless us All,

Last edited by Unes; 11-01-2006 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 03:26 PM   #7
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ITT: we establish a religious movement based on speculation and quoting scripture out of context.

Please tell me why you would be concerned that Jews don't marry outside of their group. You have established that they don't quite fairly, but you give me no reason to actually care.

Last edited by dude; 09-30-2006 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 05:34 PM   #8
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for the love of god dude, you actually read this????????????????????
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Old 09-29-2006, 10:07 PM   #9
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Crap and shove it! Again I call for a bounty on Muslims.
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Old 09-29-2006, 11:48 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Cally
for the love of god dude, you actually read this????????????????????
That's why it's here, right?
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